Another 5/8" shaft capacity handle

No Ferrule  *LINK*

Doc Green

At the risk of mentioning something that is well known: inserts of this type do not act as a ferrule, and handles of this type are in fact ferrule-less.

The implication is, in a worst-case scenario, that the handle is more likely to split than a handle with a ferrule.

Strain on the handle will be greater when the tool is extended farther over the tool rest. For a spindle roughing gouge that is extended over the rest only an inch or so, the absence of a ferrule is not likely to be a problem. However, if the same style handle is used for a bowl gouge or other tool that is extended farther over the rest, the demands placed on the handle are much more severe.

The article linked below describes this issue in considerable detail.


Article on Ferrules

Re: No Ferrule

John K Jordan

Good reminder, Doc.

A couple of things - if a suitably deep hole is drilled in the handle, tools can be inserted to control the amount of extension. This also permits keeping a consistent extension as the tool is shortened.

Using a strong wood is helpful - Dogwood is one of my favorites.

My personal use of handle inserts is primarily for my favorite, spindle turning, where big tool-breaking catches should be non-existant, even for a beginner.

For larger things like big bowls I prefer heavier handles such as the solid steel Monster handles with a tough foam rubber sleeve - I keep these in a variety of sizes and lengths. A large Hunter carbide tool in one of these long handles is fantastic!

JKJ

>>>At the risk of mentioning something that is well known: inserts of this type do not act as a ferrule, and handles of this type are in fact ferrule-less.



The implication is, in a worst-case scenario, that the handle is more likely to split than a handle with a ferrule.

Strain on the handle will be greater when the tool is extended farther over the tool rest. For a spindle roughing gouge that is extended over the rest only an inch or so, the absence of a ferrule is not likely to be a problem. However, if the same style handle is used for a bowl gouge or other tool that is extended farther over the rest, the demands placed on the handle are much more severe.

Re: Another 5/8" shaft capacity handle

Brad Vietje

Looks great! I agree with Doc (who wouldn't?) that a ferrule isn't needed here, but would be essential for a bowl gouge handle (or a handle used for a BG among other things).

I like the stippling, too. I never sand, finish or polish handles for roughing tools, but for smaller tools used in finish cuts, I can't see any reason not to.

For those of us without metalworking equipment, I assume these inserts can be purchased; I've see some somewhere, but never paid a whole lot of attention. I'm far more interested now. I've also collected 3-4 tools w/out handles that would be good candidates for this sort of modular handle system.

Safe spinning,

Brad Vietje

Newbury, VT

Re: Another 5/8" shaft capacity handle

mikeee12345

You can machine small aluminum items on a wood lathe using basic hand tools.

There are several video's on YouTube that demonstrate the concept of hand turning

small metal contoured items with free hand tools. If you take your time you can even

machine steel items with free hand tools if you take your time. Basic hand tools with

small dimension carbide tips are mounted into a handle and used on a tool rest the same

way you would approach turning a wood piece.

Adapters, and turning metal on wood lathe

John K Jordan

>>>Looks great!...

For those of us without metalworking equipment, I assume these inserts can be purchased; I've see some somewhere, but never paid a whole lot of attention. I'm far more interested now. I've also collected 3-4 tools w/out handles that would be good candidates for this sort of modular handle system.

Brad,

Thanks! Good clean fun.

You can buy inserts like this - that's what I did at first. The problem is all I've seen are made from 1" diameter stock which I find too big for smaller tools.

For example, these are some I still have. Numbers 3 and 4 in this picture are some I bought, made the others. Compare the 1/4" adapter in #3 with #2 that I made from steel. The smaller one is far more comfortable in my hand than the commercial one, especially for close, delicate spindle turning.

I made #3 and #6 from steel instead of aluminum, partly for thread strength with the thinner wall.

You might be able to twist my arm and get me to make one for you, but you can easily make these on the wood lathe, especially from aluminum. I did that for the 3/8" adapter on handle #5 just to see what it took. I uses Thompson gouges, standard skew, etc. It is slow but no problem.

I've turned a number of things from metals on the wood lathe - things perhaps impractical on the metal lathe!

JKJ

Re: Adapters, and turning metal on wood lathe

bowlman

Where would you source your metal(s) (brass, aluminum, steel) ... and what flavor (1081, annealed or not annealed, etc.)?

I am interested in doing this but have now experience. Also, what speed do you use?

Curious minds want to know ...

Turning metal

John K Jordan

>>>Where would you source your metal(s) (brass, aluminum, steel) ... and what flavor (1081, annealed or not annealed, etc.)? I am interested in doing this but have now experience. Also, what speed do you use?

I've bought stock from Online Metals: http://www.onlinemetals.com/

One very useful: they provide a guide to help choose the variety of each metal with the properties you want. For example, I clicked on brass round bar:

http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?id=80&step=2&top_cat=79

The upper right has link to the "Brass Guide":

http://www.onlinemetals.com/productguides/brassguide.cfm

There you will see that C360 is Free Machining brass, probably the best to use.

Then look for the size of rod you want:

http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?id=1117&step=2&top_cat=79

If you haven't bought brass, be prepared for sticker shock for the larger sizes. 1" diameter is not too bad, but 3" - yikes! I generally buy in 2' lengths. When I started playing with this I got a variety of sizes to have on hand.

BTW, 3/8" rod is pretty cheap and is about the right size for turning small brass finials and feet like on this little box - I'm not entirely satisfied with the size of the feet for that box but it was my first try:

So far I haven't tried annealing but I might.

I also "shop" at the local metals recycling place where it is much cheaper. However, it is just pure luck to find something I can use. Also, the specific type of metal is usually unknown. You may, like I did, get a piece of difficult to cut brass.

For aluminum I generally use 6061, the most commonly used.

As for speed on the wood lathe, I don't remember what I used but I don't think it was too fast. (I turn wood spindles at 3000+ rpm) I just adjusted the speed until things cut OK. Long spiraling "shavings" should come off the tools.

Cutting brass or aluminum is an exercise in patience - it's not very fast compared to wood or plastics! But it's a lot of fun - and can be kind of unique. I especially liked doing the multi-axis turning of the crazy golf tee. I used the method Frank Penta showed of chucking one end, turning, then loosening the chuck and angling the rod a bit. Since metal is not compressible like wood, I came up with a way to hold it securely - I first cut an egg/oval shape on one end for the chuck to clamp onto for different angles changing the angle. (Does this make sense? If not, I can take a picture.) I actually use this method with wood too, especially hard woods.

JKJ

Re: Adapters, and turning metal on wood lathe *LINK*

Dave Paine

The on-line metal supply sites have a lot of different sizes and grades, but often the shipping is x times the cost of the material.

My cheapest source is a local metal recycling place. I just made a visit the other day. Steel is $0.4/lb, aluminium is $1.6/lb. The only issue is not knowing the grade. Most of the steel is unknown grade, also unknown as to whether hot rolled or cold rolled. Most of the aluminium has the spec printed on the outside. Most likely to be 6061. I picked up some 2024 this week, stronger than 6061. I have not tried to machine this yet.

If no local metal recycling place, I find EBay to be the next best place to look. Many sellers include free shipping. Lots of smaller pieces and the grade should be stated.

Steel is often hot rolled. This does not machine well. Think of a regular bolt at the hardware store. Soft steel, but it tends to tear rather than cut. Awful rough finish. Cold rolled steel machines much better.

Not all steels can be hardened. Tool steels are the group which is most commonly hardened. O1 drill rod being an example. Normally sold in the annealed (non-hard) state to allow machining. If hardened, may not be practical to machine without annealing.

I have not tried machining steel on the wood lathe. Aluminium and brass will be much easier.

As JKJ mentioned brass is easier to machine. The 360 grade is called Free Machining since it should provide the best finish.

I would not try copper. Too soft and too fast to work harden. Bronze should work better than copper.

Metal machining is normally must slower RPM than turning wood. I normally machine about 450 rpm. Technically there are feed (as in feed rate) and speed (as in rpm) charts based on the metal, grade, diameter etc. Very difficult to control the feed rate on a wood lathe.

Most metal lathe tools have a small point which does the cutting. May be a sharp point or may have a tiny radius. Very little contact area with the cutting tip unlike a wood turning tool with a much larger contact area.

I have tried machining aluminium on my wood lathe. It can be done, but it is slow. The best tool is a graver. A thread from a machining site is linked which provides more information.

Tool technique is very different. You want the tool to be cutting at top of the work, not at centre line. This means the cutting tip down.

A HSS tool may work best. Carbide will work, just may not give the best finish.


Gravers for turning thread

Re: Adapters, and turning metal on wood lathe

John C Lucas

In my area the recyclers wont let you inside the gates. All that good useful stuff just sits there. Bummer.

Re: Adapters, and turning metal on wood lathe

John K Jordan

>>>In my area the recyclers wont let you inside the gates. All that good useful stuff just sits there. Bummer.

John, Next time you get over this way and have the time we can go down to Noble Metals in Oak Ridge. They welcome people inside. The guys don't mind you digging through piles of incoming metal and have even helped me by jumping down into dumpsters and fishing out pieces for me to look at, carrying heavy stuff, telling me where to hunt for certain things.

They have everything mostly sorted with different materials in different areas. Some racks are full of new bar stock, some of it long. A trailer is full of hardware - any kind of bolts and nuts you can imagine, generally sorted. Everything is by the pound - stainless is the same as steel I think, whether it is a chunk of bent sheet or a bag of machine screws. I found the titanium tubing there in a dusty corner and got it for almost nothing. Usually plenty of aluminum. We found a box of surgical instruments once and got some great scissors, hemostats, scalpels, etc., all stainless or titanium, again by the pound. Brass is not as common but if you go often enough you can find treasures.

The problem, as I mentioned, is you often cannot determine the exact type of material except occasionally if it is new surplus, and marked. The one piece of brass I used last was probably not C360 like some of the other pieces I got there another time.

It's a fairly good place to take a truckload of old steel scrap or aluminum cans too.

I don't know if it is due to changes in regulation or just their policy, but they make it difficult for metal thieves to sell stolen metal. They take photos and check IDs of sellers and people selling some things, for example copper, are not paid until after a waiting period.

JKJ

Re: Adapters, and turning metal on wood lathe

Brad Vietje

Very cool!

I have turned a few finials in brass, and a 1" diameter spinning top in aluminum -- slow going, but it was a lot of fun.

I found I needed to turn metal slower than wood, and use a much slower feed rate. Too fast, and the aluminum seemed to get "rubbery" and not cut as well. I'm guessing the higher speed or feed heated up the metal too much (?) and changed its characteristics? It just went better when I slowed down the RPM's and took lighter cuts. Never tired boring or making larger items, though.

Makes a LOT of sharp little curls! We typically brush these away with a rapid swipe of the hand, which turns out to be a not-so-great idea with sharp metal curly-q's.

Safe spinning,

Brad Vietje

Newbury, VT

A near disaster

John K Jordan

>>>Makes a LOT of sharp little curls! We typically brush these away with a rapid swipe of the hand, which turns out to be a not-so-great idea with sharp metal curly-q's.

I discovered another thing that needs caution. Those little spiraling curls went everywhere. One fine brass curl landed in one particular place behind the lathe and waited patiently for the exact moment to scare the pee out of me. It was resting on top of a 110v plug plugged into a receptacle.

Much later I reached down to remove the plug. As it started to loosen in the receptacle the tiny brass shaving dropped into the gap and shorted across the 110v prongs. The result was a bright flash and a loud report as the shaving vaporized. Woke me right up. It might have knocked me right out if my head had been a little more to the right.

The process created a very nice brass vapor and smoke enhanced receptacle cover which made a nice club safety show&tell.

Note to self - when turning metals where an electrical receptacle is behind the lathe, tape a appropriate paper shield to the wall.

JKJ