Wolverine/Vari grind help

Re: Wolverine/Vari grind help

George Balock

Robert,

Once you have the setting on the v-block set to match the nose angle, you move the arm on the Vari Grind to match the angle on the wings. It may take a little fiddling with it to get it right. As a little guide to see where you are grinding, you can take a marker and mark the wings on your gouge to see where the wheel is touching. Hope this helps.

Re: Wolverine/Vari grind help

John C Lucas

What George said should work or get you very close. Its not as necessary to the exact setting, just real close. The important thing is repeatability.

Go to this page on Thompson Lathe Tools *LINK*

Dick Coers

Watch his video, set your varigrind at the same angle he shows on the page, and go from there. Next time you take a class, take you equipment and tools, and ask the instructor how to set YOUR equipment to duplicate what you learn in class!


http://thompsonlathetools.com/sharpening/

P.S. Find a local AAW club and local mentor!

good instructions...

John K Jordan

Robert,

If you want to match an existing grind, the venerable JJ explains exactly how in this video starting about 39:37

https://vimeo.com/111139564

It's worth watching the rest of the video too.

JKJ

Re: Wolverine/Vari grind help

jake niedling

When you start moving the vari-grind leg, you will need to keep slighly adjusting the vee block position to maintain the nose angle. It does take some playing, but you will get it to match. It is always a good thing to match how much of the tool is sticking out past the vari-grind jig. I have seen 2" used alot, but have seen some people use 1.75" as well. You could have Mark just trace the outline of the tool and the vari-grind and send it to you.

https://youtu.be/5sTx5SbGDJI

Lyle Jamieson

I just did a quick guide to setting the jig. https://youtu.be/5sTx5SbGDJI

leg vs basket

Clifton C

Bless you Lyle, 4:55 to 5:55...That's the crux of it...I have folks tell me the opposite, but when we get to the grinder, they cannot prove it...

cc

Re: good instructions...

Robert Edington

JK Jordan,

That is a fantastic video. Thanks for posting that. I went out to the shop and was able to replicate the angle. Is the Jordan in the video you? Nevertheless, thanks again.

My class with Mark Sillay was the first instruction I've ever received. I live out in the country in south Texas and it is a drive to any clubs. I have attended a few meetings in the past, but they are pretty clickish.

Thanks again

RP

Re: leg vs basket

Lyle Jamieson

Many, maybe most, try to show the opposite and it is frustrating and confusing. Glad to help. Since the leg and basket adjustments influence each other it is hard for some to grasp the geometry. The basket position changes the tip angle AND the side grind angle. The arm adjustment ONLY changes the tip angle.

I think some of the confusion comes from the history. When the jigs were first developed the grinds were different. The backwards setup methods work somewhat for some fingernail grinds or most spindle gouge grinds. Now that most of us use a swept back winged grind, it complicates the setup rules.

Re: leg vs basket

Ron Boulton

I am afraid that I have to respectfully disagree with Lyle regarding what effects the Wolverine Jig leg angle and the distance of the pivot point have on the swept back grind.

For a start both settings do have an effect on both the tip and side angle.

However the pivot point affects the tip angle most but more importantly it is the Leg angle ( and the projection of the gouge from the jig to a smaller effect) that has a major affect on the side angle grind.

Try this on your jig. Set the gouge in your jig to your standard settings (say 2" projection and 60Deg tip angle). Now move the leg angle towards both extremes (resetting the pivot point each time to maintain the Tip Angle). Then look carefully what happens to the side grind. You don't have to actually grind your gouge. As you rotate the gouge as if grinding you can easily see where steel would be removed

Moving the leg angle to close to the gouge axis grinds more off the the side edge closer to the flute while moving the leg closer to 90deg to the gouge axis grinds more off the side away from the flute ( the bottom of the side angle). This is while the tip angle remains set at 60deg.

Don't believe then just go and try it for yourself. Its very easy to see

PS If you want an Ellsworth grind on a Wolverine jig try increasing the projection to around 3"

Re: leg vs basket

Clifton C

Ron, I think what you are saying is true because you are resetting the pivot point each time you move the jig-leg. If you rotate the gouge onto its side so the wing bevel is on the wheel, moving the jig-leg has little affect on the wing angle, some yes, but not a lot. Moving the V-pocket in or out has a large affect, as in the wings are either more vertical to the flute or more rolled over. What am I missing?

Re: good instructions... *LINK*

John Jordan

Thank you, John. I watched that video the other day-I think it was included in the AAW weekly email. I was very pleased with the way that came out, and I think if can clarify bowl gouge setups for people who want uncomplicated, simple ways to understand why and how to go about it.

Simple is good, here's the link again: https://vimeo.com/111139564

JJ


Bowl gouge Sharpening

Re: Go to this page on Thompson Lathe Tools

Robert Lalonde

I agree with Dick. I set my Varigrind as Doug Thompson recommends years ago and have been very happy with it. I never change it so all of my gouges respond in the same way.

Simple? Yes, but it works for me and I don't have to think about it.

Re: Wolverine/Vari grind help

John from Lutz

One of the hardest things I dealt with when starting turning was the sharpening of the gouges. Everybody has a different opinion and that is not bad. There are a lot of options for you to try to find what works for you. I even bought a number of medium grade gouges so I could work with different grinds without having to stop to change the grind in the middle of turning. I decided I liked the Ellsworth grind. I finally met Don Gieger, http://www.geigerssolutions.com, and ended up with a his pro solutions jig to be used with the Vari-Grind. It raises the contact point of the leg in the basket. This makes a big difference in how the wings grind. He has replaced it with an updated and less expensive version. Perhaps the best thing was that in talking with him he explained a lot of turners grind the wings to sharply such that there is almost no bevel which makes them grabby. I now grind the wings with as much bevel as possible which works well with both pull cuts and shear cuts for the final clean up.

Re: Wolverine/Vari grind help

John C Lucas

Interesting. I have been reducing the size of my main bevel for the last bunch of years. My main bevel including running around the wings is about 3mm. I think it may reduce catches. I started doing that for two reasons. One was to reduce the friction so i could "feel" the cut better which makes it easier not to force the cut. The other reason was i had been experimenting with Johannes convex grind to see if it reduced catches. I really could t tell if it reduced catches at least for me but then ive been using a bowl.gouge for almost 30 years a d dont vet many catches unless i do somethig stupid so its hard to judge. I did do an impromptu demo one time when the demonstrator had to cancel. I used another turners tools that had a full length bevel and really had to fight them.

Re: Wolverine/Vari grind help

Bill Blasic

I have been using Hannes' Jig since he brought it out and my bevel is about 1/16" (or 2mm). I really do believe that it reduces catches and it sure helped me feel the bevel.

Vari-grind basket height vs distance past jig?

Karl_TN

Many grinding instructions suggest we extend gouges out 2 inches past the vari-grind jig, but I haven't seen any explanation as how other distances will affect the grind profile. For example, Ron Boulton suggested extended gouge by 3 inches for an Elsworth grind. What is this doing exactly?

In other words, could changing this distance increase or decrease the bevel height? If so then maybe Don Geiger's new gouge sharpening jig (Evolution???) isn't needed for this function.

Re: Vari-grind basket height vs distance past jig?

Clifton C

It's hard to know because we don't know what his other parameters are. I have Don G's original vertical solution, his on board gauge gives a little over 2 inch stick out. Set up for a swept back bowl gouge, I have my jig leg set to give a 60 deg nose bevel and the V-arm set so the wings are rolled over a bit, and grind the wings back about 3/4 to 7/8ths inch. If I don't change anything, but increase the stick out by another 1 1/4 inch I can sharpen my detail gouge to a 35 deg bevel. But, as we know, each setup is different. I think basically, extending the gouge from the jig decreases the nose angle.

Re: Vari-grind basket height vs distance past jig?

Ron Boulton

Clifton

Sorry I have not replied to your Q before now.

My point is that it is the distance that the pivot point is from the wheel that sets the nose angle.

With any fixed nose angle, changing the the leg angle then affects the angle of the side grind.

Please remember that when you change the leg angle for the side grind you always have to readjust the pivot point to maintain the nose angle, but the nose angle can be set to any angle you require.

May I suggest that you look at the set up of a Wolverine Jig from the other direction.

For example if you are trying to copy an Ellsworth grind ( or Thompson or any other grind) first you must set the leg angle to get the desired shape of the side angle.

Then you adjust the pivot point to obtain the nose angle that you require.

The Ellsworth jig has a non adjustable leg angle to get the side grind that he requires. You can still get different nose angles with the Ellsworth jig while still maintaining the side grind shape.

Many turners once they obtain a suitable side angle on their jig lock the leg and never adjust it.

With the Wolverine or other similar jigs, the length and whether the side grind is convex, straight or concave is determined by the operator by how much you grind away at any point on the side grind

Re: Vari-grind basket height vs distance past jig?

Ron Boulton

Clifton

Changing the stick out is not normally used to change the nose angle. The stick out really changes the angle side grind because when you increase the stick out you then change the pivot point to compensate and get the same nose angle.

Once you settle on a stickout you should 'stick to it' otherwise every time you grind your gouge you will change the grind shape!

When you change the stick out or the leg angle you are really changing the angle of the side grind. As far as I can tell the stick out is a finer adjustment of the side grind than the leg angle. However the stick out may have other effects that I am not aware of. The increased stick out is not my idea and has been advised in several web articles to allow the Wolverine jig to more closely mimic the Ellsworth jig.

Please do a little experiment with one of your bowl gouges to clearly illustrate what I mean. ( You don't have to actually grind your gouge to see the effect.)

First change your jig leg angle to one extreme, say 90 Deg to the axis of the gouge. Then set the pivot point to give you the same nose angle that you normally use.

Without starting the grinder roll the jig over as if you were grinding the side and look where the grinding wheel is touching the gouge. It will be on one edge.

Then repeat with the leg angle set to almost parallel to the gouge axis. This time the wheel will grind the opposite edge of the side bevel.

I know these are extreme angles but they clearly illustrate what happens when you change the leg angle and keep the nose angle the same.

Re: Vari-grind basket height vs distance past jig?

Clifton C

Ron, the stick out reply was in response to Karl's question. My jig-leg is pinned so no one can change my nose angle when I am at the school. Once I set the V-arm, I have a locking collar that butts against the clamping block, so that distance remains constant. The stick out distance is from the on board gauge. After that, the only thing that really changes is the hight of the V-arm basket, and with Don G's system that's easy. I think the Ellsworth with the non adjustable leg works because he is specific on all the other grinder set-up parameters. I've always had a good time discussing this, and trying to understand the different points of view.

This is one idea I cannot grasp, "With any fixed nose angle, changing the the leg angle then affects the angle of the side grind." If I set the nose angle, then swing the tool onto its side, the only way I can change the wing angle appreciably is by changing the distance of the pivot point, i.e.. moving the V-arm. I know changing that distance then changes the nose angle, but then I readjust.

Usually, folks ask for help because their bowl gouge is "catchy" or "grabby". I show how the wings on their gouge are more vertical in relation to the flute, whereas a calm gouge has the wings more rolled over. Nether is right or wrong, it's just that more vertical is more grabby. I suppose the part I cannot get past is that if the gouge is on its side, wing in full contact with the wheel, changing the jig-leg doesn't change wing angle much, but moving the V-leg in or out certainly does. Anyway, still looking at it, thanks for the reply.

cc

Re: Vari-grind basket height vs distance past jig?

Lyle Jamieson

Sorry Ron I agree with Cliff

Re: Vari-grind basket height vs distance past jig?

Karl_TN

Cliff,

There are a lot of ways to configure the Wolverine Vari-grind system, but Oneway does a poor job explaining the different settings and how they interact with each other. For the record, I own the Vari-grind 2 jig which has a small height adjustment, but wasn't sure if changing this height setting made any appreciable difference.

Pinning the pivot angle down to one setting limits experimentation so I've started writing down my preferred settings on a piece of tape around the ferrules for each gouge. This way I can play around with the settings and still get back to setting that works best for each gouge.

So any guesses what Don's new "Evolution" does that makes it worth an extra $49 (special sale price)? Don's website seems to be lacking any information and pics.