turning with bevel rubbing tools

Re: turning with bevel rubbing tools

mikeee12345

John,

Dealing with family issues can really deplete the creative and productive elements of your life.

Hope things turn around for you and your family soon!

Re: turning with bevel rubbing tools

philip f Duffy

Hi John, Well, you bring out some great points regarding tools and their usage. I would also simply point out to your many fans that the easy-turning tools are simply expensive scraper tools. Philip

Hope it gets read

Lyle Jamieson

You are right on John. I hope people take the time to read all of your post. Have you seen any of my videos or DVDs. I am not a fan of scraping. I have just shot the footage for a new video for YouTube that shows how people with physical difficulties can keep turning from a seated position. I ended up doing a bowl. On the outside I used the Hunter carbide on my boring bar and I have slicing cuts through the fibers with a bevel supported cut. It left a nice surface that needed little sanding. I used the HSS tool as a scraper with my boring bar on the inside of the bowl. The bottom line the inside surface left behind from scraping needed some serious sanding compared to my normal use of my bowl gouge or the slicing cut from the Hunter carbide. Subscribe to my YouTube channel, I will publish it in a week or two.

Re: turning with bevel rubbing tools

robo hippy

As a scraper psycho, I prefer them for roughing cuts, and a scraping cut leaves a rougher surface. I use a bevel rubbing cut for the finish cut. Next I use a shear scrape to clean that up. The higher the shear angle, most of the time, the cleaner the cut is. The edge off a 180 grit CBN wheel is excellent for most pieces of wood. The edge off of a 600 or 1000 grit is excellent for fine finis cuts on difficult pieces that want to tear, but lousy for heavy roughing.

Mike Hunter was at the Oregon Woodturning Symposium, and he came over to my tooth to play. His tools will do shear cuts. Most of the Easy Wood tools do not appear to be intended to be used up on their sides.

I need to do one video just on shear scraping...

robo hippy

Re: Hope it gets read

john lucas

Lyle I've watched several of your videos and should have included you on the list with Mike, Stewart and Glen. I guess I just don't understand people who don't want to improve what they do. Of course I realize that this is just a hobby for most people and they carry it only as far as they want.

I watched a guy turning a Purple heart bowl. It was a typical woodcraft kind of blank, 2 1/2 to 3" thick and about 6" or 8" square. He knocked off the corners with a bandsaw and then tried to round it with one of the flatter looking roughing gouges. That wasn't working because it was dull. Nothing but chips so then he changed to what appeared to be a round EZ wood tool. I would have at least used the square one on the outside. That didn't work to well because they do get dull pretty quick so he switched to what looked like a fluteless gouge. That didn't work so he went back and forth between the 3. Finally got it round and shaped. He did finally end up with a pretty nice bowl. My point is, why make a video if your not that skilled with tools.

Agree

Re: turning with bevel rubbing tools

john lucas

I thought you showed a video where you do shear scraping. Anyway it's obvious from your videos that you investigate what makes things faster or better. That's the point I'm trying to make. Not necessarily what tool you use. I did try shear scraping and bevel rubbing with EZ wood tools. Neither works very well. As a shear scraper if the tool is new it works but they dull far too fast and a fresh burr on a HSS scraper is so much better. As a roughing tool with no learning curve they are excellent. It just that you can get a far better finish with bevel rubbing tools.

If you try to turn 2 beads beside each other with a scraper it will be a disaster. And fine details on ornament finials simply won't work with a scraper.

Re: turning with bevel rubbing tools

Lyle Jamieson

I use sheer scraping a lot too. I usually use my bowl gouge but I have had great results sheer scraping with the Hunter tools too.

Re: turning with bevel rubbing tools

George Balock

John,

You are right in your thinking. I believe that the more casual turner is more interested in the final product than how they got there. I am a big advocate of having turners learn how to make cuts on green wood for practice. The wood is practically free, so the need to get a finished product is diminished.

I like pretty wood as much as anyone, and when I lay down some hard earned cash for a chunk of wood, I do feel like I must get something out of it. That is why I advocate the green wood/practice road.

Re: turning with bevel rubbing tools

robo hippy

I have shown some shear or sheer scraping in some of my videos, but there are a lot of 'shear scraping' clips that are shown that are not shear scraping at all. Also, if I want a piece to be pretty much perfectly round, I can't do that with a bevel rubbing cut, but the shear scrape will do that. Brian Havens does a clip on shear scraping, but I want a bit more explanation of what goes on.

The burrs for shear scraping are highly variable. I do prefer my scrapers, mostly because I can watch the edge cut, but with a gouge you roll it so far over that you can't see the cut happening, but have to watch the wood. Just a personal preference. Two recent discoveries for shear scraping both come from Eric Lofstrom, a NW turner. One is that you get a much different burr from the V10 like Doug uses for his tools, and the M42HSS that D Way uses. The difference is in the particle metal vx steel. I don't know if either is superior. The other is using a small carbide tipped burnishing tool to roll a very tiny burr on the tools for shear scraping. I am finding this to work very well, perhaps even better than the burrs off of the CBN wheels, which are a step or three above the burr from standard grinders. More experimenting. Eric also uses the burnished burr on his NRS. Note here, this is a very gently turned burr. Very strong compared to a grinder burr, but not one you use much pressure for. I have seen some turners using the Lee Valley bench mount burnisher where they really armstrong it.... Overkill....

Scrapers and scraping cuts don't work well for spindles, but can work very well for end grain hollowing. This is where end grain turning and bowl/side grain turning differ a lot. There are those who claim to be able to do 'tear out free' bowl turning. Me, being a skeptic, don't believe that at all. Any time you cut uphill against the grain, you will get tear out. You can tame it to the point of it not being highly visible, but if you run your hand over it, you can easily feel it.

robo hippy

Re: turning bevel rubbing tools

David Smith

I'm a relatively new turner as I've only been at it a year or so. When I first started turning I used my cousin's vintage Craftsman turning tools. After a month I bought a set of Easy Wood Tools and after using them one time I returned them. I developed the mind set that I wanted to learn how to use traditional tools so I'm back to using the vintage Craftsman chisels as well as a few inexpensive gouges that I bought. But nothing compares to the Thompson spindle gouge that JKJ sent me, what an awesome gouge!

While the end product is important for me the journey to get there is equally as important, if not more so. I still need to develop more skills with my turning tools but that will come with time and one day I hope to be near as good you guys. I don't have a whole lot so contribute to the message boards as a new turner but I have learned a lot from them as well as from watching numerous videos. I'll continue to enjoy the art of turning with my traditional tools and maybe down the road when my skills have been more developed I'll try some carbide tools. I should add that even though some of my end products end up in the fire pit I usually learned something new while turning it, at the very least I had a chance to keep practicing.

Re: turning bevel rubbing tools

David Smith

I should have added that I don't use my scrapers very much. I do use my bowl and spindle gouges a lot and have seen my cuts progressively get smother and smoother. I do rub the bevel with these gouges but I have no idea if that is what you mean by bevel turning.

video needed

John K Jordan

John, one particular video would be very useful. Show the difference between the surface you get with good bevel-rubbing cutting tools and easy scrapers, side by side on the same bowl or spindle. Perhaps show the sanding grit and effort needed for each case.

Also, perhaps show the difference between the easy type of tool the something like the Hunter Carbide.

It is sad the number of people who get started with the cheap carbide tools for everything and never learn anything different. The are handicapped from then on but never realize it.

Of course, on WoodCentral you are mostly preaching to the choir!

JKJ

Hear! Hear!

Brad Vietje

I hear ya, John!

At the moment I have no camera -- not even a cell phone camera -- but I so often see things that make me wish I could make a video in response.

Seems like every time I turn to YouTube for a little turning entertainment, I see a mix of about 10% good stuff, 20% so-so (OK, but they could have improved this here, or that there), and 70% poor technique. I'm always amused at this apparent need for an absolute beginner to record their learning curve (?), but then present it in a way that appears to be instructional -- WHA?!?

I'm thinkin' if you don't know how to do this, why are you asking me to watch you: struggle, do it dangerously, or make something ugly that shows all the beginner's most common mistakes ? And, to top it off, why are you basically showing people how to do it badly, when you have so much to learn here? Me no get it. I figure someone ought to get reasonably competent before posting how-to videos, but maybe that's just my arrogant evil twin Skippy typing.

Anyhow, when I get a camera capable of shooting video again, I think I'll be joining you in cyberspace, trying to help beginners actually learn good technique -- and surely there ARE some great presentations out there. In my case, it IS because I hate sanding, but that's a whole 'nuther matter

Safe spinning,

Brad Vietje

Newbury, VT

Re: video needed

David Smith

That would be a great video!

Re: turning bevel rubbing tools

john lucas

David nothing wrong with those tools at all. They won't hold an edge as long as HSS but that's no big deal. Sharpening more often improves your sharpening skills which is a good thing. Bowl gouges are new and the metals are new but most other tools really aren't much different than the older Craftsman tools. I still have a Craftsman 1/8" parting tool and a skew that I love.

Re: video needed *LINK*

john lucas

John I've tried showing it in videos and it just doesn't come across. You can see the difference between a nasty scrape and a highly polished bevel rubbing cut. When you shear scrape, even a really clean cut it leaves a satin finish and just doesn't photograph tremendously different than a scraping cut. I'll try again with a more point source light at a shear angle and maybe it will show up better.

On my Hunter Oprey video when I turn the pen you can see the difference between a bevel rubbing cut and a scrape both with the Hunter tool. Well I just looked at and you really can't see how huge the difference is. I looks more subtle in the video but then the lighting is rather broad and won't show that. It's about 3:50 into the video


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_JoR9yLiQc

Re: video needed

robo hippy

Well, another project.... Talking with Tom Wirsing (hope I got that right) who along with Stuart Batty will be doing an edge and surface comparison on tools with a 300X camera that hooks up to your computer. I have one as well. It would be interesting to take the camera to the same piece of wood with a bunch of cutting tool comparisons.... Bowl orientation, and end grain VS side grain.... Bevel rub grits 80 through 1000, honed, shear scrapes all grits, scrapes all grits, nanograin carbide cuts, hand honed, and probably a bunch of others....

Dang it, it is all your fault that you started me thinking again....

robo hippy

Re: video needed

john lucas

Reed I did an edge comparison between high carbon steel, High speed steel and particle metal. I have never had time to try and get photo micrographs of the edge. Stuff just seems to keep happening to my life to put that on a back burner. What I found was there wasn't any difference in how good of an edge you can get. Running an actual cutting test is beyond what I think I have the skills and equipment to do.

Re: video needed

John K Jordan

>>>I've tried showing it in videos and it just doesn't come across.

I had in mind primarily showing a bowl turner the difference in the cut between carbide scrapers and fine bevel-rubbing cuts. With the "right" wood and tools the tearout might be dramatic and easy to show in a closeup side by side.

I have a closeup camera that works with a computer that I think would show the difference, especially with the right lighting.

If you are interested and can ever find the time I'd be glad to drive over with my cameras, tripods, lights, wood, jokes,... and help out with a video or two. I can run camera, edit.

JKJ

Re: video needed

John C Lucas

John it would certainly be a fun day but i will be spending the next 7 weeks hauling my stepson back and forth to.radiation treatments si i guess thats off for at leat a month or so. Ill have lots of time to use my phone as a computer since we will be staying in Chattanooga.with him 4 days a.week.

Re: video needed

robo hippy

We need transporters..... Beam me aboard!!!!

robo hippy

Re: video needed

john lucas

Reed You and John and I would have a ball. Maybe we could meet half way.

I'm with you, John

GaryG in MD

I try hard to do bevel-riding cuts for most applications (even roughing) except inside hollow forms (for which I am not willing to pay for a Hunter #1 bar insert, and I expect it would scare me if I used it as a cutter). I know what a dull tool feels like, bumping along the wood instead of cutting it, and I'm certainly not going to do that on purpose! I'll be honest, if not PC: in my vocabulary, EZ is a bad word that makes me grit my teeth. And, no, that's not a sanding joke, so let me change it to grind my teeth... no, then it's a sharpening joke... can't win. It makes my teeth hurt! ...GG