Why do they still make spindle gouges?

Re: Why do they still make spindle gouges?

robo hippy

Bowl gouges will work on spindles, but a spindle roughing gouge is more efficient. The broad and square nose seem to work better for that use.

robo hippy

Re: Why do they still make spindle gouges?

David Walser

Cameron -- Let's get the terminology correct. There are many types of "spindle gouges". The one you are referring to is a "spindle roughing gouge", which only a few years ago was called simply a "roughing gouge". (We started adding the term "spindle" to the gouge's name to reinforce the fact that it should only be used on spindles, not on bowls.)

A spindle roughing gouge (SRG) is great for quickly turning a spindle blank round. It's also useful for turning a cylinder, or making tapers, large beads, and gentle coves. Used properly, it will leave a finish that rivals that of a skew. With it's square grind, you can safely cut right up into a corner.

Can a bowl gouge do all that? Yes, but not as easily or as well. The complex geometry of a bowl gouge's flute makes it more difficult to turn a true cylinder or a taper and it may make it impossible to get into a corner. But, a lot of turners prefer using the bowl gouge over the SRG because they're more comfortable with a bowl gouge. We tend to use the tools we are most familiar with.

For a similar reason, I used to wonder why anyone would ever use a skew when a spindle gouge (not a SRG) could make all the cuts a skew could make. But, after I spent more time with a skew and became proficient with it, I understood why they still make skews. (As a practical joke on turners! (I'm joking.))

So, my advice to new turners would be to learn how to use a SRG properly and determine for themselves if it has a proper place in their tool rack. My bet is that they'll use it frequently -- but only on spindles!

A true spindle gouge is highly useful.....

JamieDonaldson

.....tool for most spindle turning that involves detailed work like beads and coves. To further muddy the definition, a detail(spindle) gouge is a further evolution of the tool that has become my most used spindle gouge for any type of details in spindle turning.

Allan Batty video demonstrating use of SRG *LINK*

David Walser

Craft Supplies USA has posted on YouTube a 55 minute video by the late Allan Batty on the use of the skew. Starting at about 13:30 into the video, he has a brief section in which he demonstrates some of the uses of a SRG.

I highly recommend the video. Even experienced turners will learn something from it. However, that recommendation comes with one caveat: the video isn't very entertaining. Allan's in-person demonstrations were highly entertaining. In this video, he comes across as a fairly boring college professor giving a lecture. He knows his stuff, but it the knowledge is easier to swallow in small bites.

HTH


Allan Batty Skew Video

Re: Why do they still make spindle gouges?

cameron

I was referencing a 1/4" spindle gouge and then added on the roughing gouge at the bottom (for me they came in the Crown kit that I bought years ago when someone gave me a Central Machinery "lathe" that I used one time and stuck in the corner of my shop to collect dust)

Re: Why do they still make spindle gouges?

john lucas

Well some have already answered. There are lots of spindle gouges. The spindle roughing gouge is a big U shaped thing. Then there are 1" wide slightly curved blades that I call a European spindle gouge and some call it a roughing gouge. Then there are narrower versions of the same thing. Depending on the grind you put on the nose they can be used for bowls. With an acute grind they work almost like a skew and could be used on the outside of bowls but probably not the inside.

then there are round bars that have shallow grinds that are used as spindle gouges. If you look at Doug Thompsons website you will see the difference. He sells for example a 1/2" bowl gouge, 1/2" spindle gouge and 1/2" detail gouge all made from the same 1/2" round bar. The difference is the depth and shape of the flute. The flute shape affects the tip shape. The detail gouge tip will grind more to a point than the spindle gouge and bowl gouge and will reach into tighter places which is perfect for those tiny details, hence the name.

All of these tools can be ground with pretty radically different grinds and therefore each of us find a use that we like. If I ground my thompson 1/2" spindle gouge to the same nose angle as my 1/2" bowl gouge using the Wolverine jig the only difference would be the length of the wings. Typically I usually grind my spindle gouges to a much more acute angle so they are better for turning coves and beads. A bowl gouge would not be good to turn beads that are close to each other because the wings would get in the way.

Many of us own spindle gouges of different sizes and shapes for specific uses. For example I have a 3" wide spindle gouge that I use for turning very large spindles. I have a 3/32" spindle gouge for turning very small spindle details.

then there are fluteless gouges that are supposed to be better at some things than bowl or spindle gouges. I'm not so sure about that one because for me it's more about the tip shape and how acute the tip is than whether it has a flute or not. The fluteless gouge simple falls somewhere between the European spindle gouges and the round spindle gouges.

Re: Why do they still make spindle gouges?

Don Stephan

From Richard Raffan's bowl making book and DVD combo, I learned to use often a spindle gouge for roughing out the exterior of bowls. It is less likely to become clogged with shavings and I believe is less expensive than a corresponding bowl gouge.

Re: Why do they still make spindle gouges?

John K Jordan

Are you are reading things written by bowl turners without much spindle expertise?

How a gouge behaves in a particular situation depends a lot on the grind. (And turners do use spindle gouges on bowls.)

If you do a lot of fine detail on spindles especially on smaller work, the spindle gouges are invaluable - I use the 3/8 spindle gouges for almost everything. The 3/8" detail gouge and the shallow detail gouge that Thompson sells are perfect for delicate detail in tight places. Those who exclusively turn bowls might not understand this. If you stick to simple spindles without detail, sure, regrind the bowl gouge and use it for coves and use the skew for everything else. But if you need two gouges, one ground for bowls, why not just buy a spindle gouge for the other one?

The price is not that much different. Thompson sells a 3/8" bowl gouge for $55, a 3/8" spindle gouge for $50. (Thompson doesn't even make a 1/4" bowl gouge.)

BTW, I often use a skew for roughing spindles instead of the roughing gouge.

For those not aware, using a spindle roughing gouge on a bowl can be dangerous when it breaks. The tang that connects the handle is a weak point.

JKJ

Re: Why do they still make spindle gouges?

Joe Fleming

Stuart Batty explains the design of a spindle gouge in a very excellent way. If you ever get a chance to take a class with him, you will likely find it is the best class you ever will take.

Two key aspects of spindle gouges: flute design and handle design.

The flute, if made properly centers the bottom of the flute at te exact center of the bar stock. If ground this way, the tool can act as a spoon bit to drill holes. Bowl gouges are too deep to do this correctly. The shape of the flute couple with a fingernail grind will also let you make a number of spindle details that you cannot make with a bowl gouge. For example, you cannot roll a full bead with a bowl gouge. The wings get in the way. If you try to grind the node of the bowl gouge with a "pointy tip" for detail work, the geometry of most flutes will not allow it. Spindle and detail gouges allow for such geometries.

Spindle tools are designed to be used in front of the body. Many spindle operations require a lot of tool articulation that the handle of a long handled gouge will not allow so well. Short handles allow the tool handle to pass in front of your body without exaggerated dances around the handle. Bowl tools are typically used anchored to the body or hip using that long handle. I learned this information from both Stuart and Allan Batty.

Many will say that each style can be used in the others' stead, but not as efficiently or effectively, IMHO. But if we are going to go there, I would argue that we should chuck all of our cutting tools and only buy carbide scraper tools like Easy Wood tools. They do "everything" too.

Joe

Why not to use roughing gouge on bowls  *LINK*


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IOhHeyoZLaY

Re: Why do they still make spindle gouges?

Brad Vietje

I'd like to add a slight twist to David's post about getting into a corner with a bowl gouge.... Certainly not with a "swept back", Irish, Celtic, or Ellsworth-sorta grind, but entirely do-able with a traditional, straight-across English grind that some of them still come with. I changed any of those grinds I had, but as supplied, they would work fine over on their side.

Safe spinning,

Brad Vietje

Newbury, VT

Re: Allan Batty video demonstrating use of SRG

Brad Vietje

I got a real lesson in the use of the SRG about 15 years ago from Michael Hosaluk, who sharpens the corners a little differently, keeping the corner at 90 degrees. He rounds up a square, cuts long curves, and then flips the gouge over on its side to cut a tenon, peel off wood, etc... I've done this ever since, but I don't remember his little trick for sharpening the corners.

Don't know if anyone has a video showing his use of the tool, but it was interesting to watch.

Safe spinning,

Brad Vietje

Newbury, VT

Re: Why do they still make spindle gouges?

Brad Vietje

I rough turn the outer profile with a 1/2" Ellsworth grind bowl gouge (5/8" diameter), then usually move to a 3/8" bowl gouge (ground the same), or, for tougher curly figure, a 1/4" bowl gouge with a straight-across conical grind for the smoothest cut.

When turning a coarse, or obstinate curly wood, I very often make my finish cuts from foot to rim with a 3/8" detail gouge with the rest down low, and the gouge at a very steep, almost vertical angle, so the cut happens at or near center. The stiffness of a detail gouge makes it a good choice for this, while a long, thin, wimpy spindle gouge often sold with cheap-o sets would probably make a mess of it.

I'll try to find a photo of this gouge... I found one cleaning up a natural-edge Walnut bowl. I had actually just used it to cut the bark edge the other way, from left to right, but the lighting was awful to show the grind, so I posed it facing left:

Safe spinning,

Brad Vietje

Newbury, VT

Re: Allan Batty video demonstrating use of SRG

robo hippy

I learned that peeling cut with a SRG all by myself. I was using it at a work shop with Stuart and Alan Batty, and Stuart wouldn't let me use it. Very effective though...

robo hippy

Re: Why not to use roughing gouge on bowls

robo hippy

One of my pet peeves about the 'lessons' on why not to use the SRG on bowls is mis-information. I love old Robbo the Aussie who did this clip, great guy who keeps things simple and practical. Stuart Batty mentions it in his demo when he talks about why you should not use a SRG on bowls and he says it is all about the end grain, which I totally disagree with, and will take up that subject with him at the Oregon Woodturning Symposium coming up next month. Now, perhaps it is my unique perspective on things in general and my preference for scrapers, but having watched Robbo's video a number of times till I figured out why he had the catch, it became obvious to me. One thing he said at the end really caught my attention, it was some thing like 'I spent about 6 hours in the shop last night and couldn't get a catch'. Now, just how did the catch happen? Well he used the SRG the way a 'normal' person would when roughing spindles: you start with the handle low, rub the heel of the bevel, and raise the handle slowly till it starts to cut. This is what you do on spindles. You do this on small spindles, like 3 inch or so, but if you have one that is 6 to 8 inches, you usually cut off the corners because you will beat yourself up using that method. So, looking at that 'presentation' of the cutting edge to the wood, is there any one out there, even if you don't use scrapers the way I do, who would present a scraper to a bowl blank that way??? That is one of those 'you gotta be out of your #&**$%@ mind things!! Pointing a cutting edge up into the spinning wood like that. Funny thing about the 6 hours without a catch, how did he do it, and what finally made it catch? As long as you are rubbing the bevel, you have some bit of control, and yes, I did it with both scrapers and gouges at very slow speed. Come off the bevel even the slightest bit and you are sticking your finger into the fan at the wrong angle, and major slam.... Where he actually has the catch, if you look closely, he extends out very far off the tool rest, and then up comes the handle, down off the bevel comes the cutting edge, and slam/blood donation. Presentation (how you stick a sharp piece of metal into spinning wood) of the cutting edge was the cause of the catch, and in no way, shape or form was it due to end grain. This was my answering clip to Robbo's video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwlAb2BWHw8

robo hippy

Re: Why not to use roughing gouge on bowls

David Walser

Robbo -- You're correct. As you demonstrated, a SRG can be used 'safely' on a bowl. The problem is even in safe-mode, if (when) there's a catch it's apt to be spectacular. Those corners might dig in deeply and the slender shank might not be up to the force's involved. And, here's where I'm going to agree with Stuart Batty. The bowl grain orientation will likely make any catch worse because of the end grain. If the catch is in the face grain, the wood is apt to break, releasing the gouge. If the catch is in the end grain, the wood is not as apt to break. The gouge won't be released until it's turned into a missile.

So, why run the risk? As you point out in your video, bowl gouges can make the same cut -- better. Why attempt the cut with a tool that won't be safe if there's a catch? (I understand that no tool is perfectly safe if there's a catch. We're talking degrees of safety.)

Re: Why do they still make spindle gouges?

William Duffield

One minor advantage of roughing gouges (after you've appreciated all the advantages and disadvantages described above), is that they are easier to sharpen, and they work the same all the way across the bevel, until you get to the ends of the bevel of course. If they start to get dull, just rotate them a bit, until they are dull all over, and then sharpen.

Re: Why not to use roughing gouge on bowls

john lucas

I'm with David. Although in experienced hands it can be used for just about everything, and I often do. Inexperienced hands tend to use it like a scraper and those wings will catch everytime. I can't tell you how many times someone has shown be a Spindle roughing gouge with a bent or broken tang. don't know how they used it but it doesn't matter at that point.

Re: Why do they still make spindle gouges?

John K Jordan

>>>...the tool can act as a spoon bit to drill holes. ...will also let you make a number of spindle details that you cannot make with a bowl gouge. ... Many spindle operations require a lot of tool articulation that the handle of a long handled gouge will not allow so well. ...

Joe, you make some good points and elequently. I forgot that I often use a spindle gouge to drill onto a face turning or a box blank.

And the short handle - spot on. I often use very short handles (as evangelized by Frank Penta) - for a lot of spindle turning I use a 3/8" gouge with no handle except a thin 5" long rubber sleeve slipped over the shaft, sometimes with just the bare tool for small work. Visit Frank's shop - many of his tools have very short wooden handles, maybe 6" or so.

I do a lot of spindle turning holding the tool in one hand and moving it as you mentioned, often guiding or steadying the shaft right at the rest with my left thumb. I didn't think of the motion required but there is no way I could do detail work doing the "woodturner's dance" with the long handle typical on a bowl gouge.

I've never seen Stuart Batty in person or on video, but if he's teaching spindle turning like that I like his style!

But if someone makes me give up my skews and spindle gouges for the Easy Wood tools, I'm giving up woodturning and taking up pottery and basket weaving...

JKJ

Re: Why not to use roughing gouge on bowls

robo hippy

Okay, the part I still don't get is end grain catches vs side grain catches. You run the exact same risk with bowl gouges on bowls, except they have more rounded edges, and the wings are generally what catch from not being presented properly. With the handle dropped, and rolled over to 90 degrees rather than flutes up, you can not get the corners to dig in. The only difference grain orientation can make is that you may be able to get a split and the chunk of wood goes flying which would reduce the amount of dig in. If you are turning a square or rectangle shape, and approaching the cut from the line of fire, like Robbo does (he is Robbo, I am robo like robo cop, only robo hippy...) then it will splinter off. Any one who has turned those shapes knows to approach it with a high angle shear cut from the back side.

There is a popular cut with some bowl turners, and I think it is more used on the inside of a bowl, where the flutes are straight up and you cut with the wing on the up hill side. Those who teach it say to have some one instruct you with it, and you can get the hang of it with practice. I do not use it, and do not teach it because of the high risk of catching. Again, roll over on the side, and drop the handle a bit and you can not engage the high side of the tool, which is the part that catches. Again, end grain and side grain make no difference. Being below center on the outside of a bowl, and above center on the inside of a bowl does make a difference in that the cutting edge drops out of the cut rather than digs in farther. Presentation is the critical part.

robo hippy

Re: Why do they still make spindle gouges?

Jorge

Late to this party, but here it goes...

Bowl gauges are a very recent development, spindle gouges have been around several millennia and most of the turnings done by professionals up to these days are spindle work.

Bowls were made in the past with those gouges, heck! I remember seeing a fellow back in the old country with a kick wheel lathe fashioned with half a rear axle of a car, with a wheel and tire, making a bowl with a skew! not too big, 7" or 8" just the way tip touched the wood and it did not take long either.

Re: Why do they still make spindle gouges?

Keith Tompkins

Way late to the party....the answer is easy. Spindle gouges were designed for turning spindles. They have a much shallower flute, which leaves more mass for its size compared with a bowl gouge. One can achieve far greater detail with a spindle gouge than with the similar sized bowl gouge. roughing gouges are not the only kind of spindle gouge; there are continental gouges, detail gouges, fluteless gouges, etc. Most of this finial was done with a 3/8" spindle gouge, the details with a skew. Pretty tough to do with a bowl gouge.

Re: Why do they still make spindle gouges?

John K Jordan

Well said. I love the labeling you've done on that photo.

JKJ

Re: Why do they still make spindle gouges?

Keith tompkins

Thanks John!