Sharpening Help

Re: Sharpening Help

John K Jordan

>>>I am converting from Tormek to CBN on an 8" grinder for turning tool sharpening. I will also be using the Oneway Wolverine system for the first time.

...I will be using the Raptor step-up tools and Oneway's Vari-Grind 2.

What "settings" do you suggest for:

A fingernail grind on the spindle gouge?

An Ellsworth grind on the bowl gouge?

Hi Doug.

I don't have my jigs in front of me but what I did was take a gouge I had sharpened with the Tormak, set the Varigrind to some setting near the middle, adjust the angle to fit the gouge at the tip, then rotate the tool to the side to see it was close enough there. If not, I adjusted the Varigrind a notch and tried again. I got things real close that way.

I do not like to change the jig so I found a setting that would work on my bowl gouges as well. If you want some gouges significantly different, you might do like Glenn Lucas showed us - have a several jigs all preset. He color coded the jigs and the gouges to keep things straight. Keep in mind he IS a production turner, and a very prolific one!

Another idea if you are not aware of it: you can use a bracket and keep using the Tormek jigs with the 8" grinder. They sell a kit for this now but I did this for my bench grinder long before they had the kit and before the CBN wheels. I bought a spare bracket and support bar and used a block of wood to mount it:

I cut clearance in the block for the Wolverine handle so I can use both on the same grinder.

I also put a 600 grit wheel on the Tormak for more flexibility.

BTW, I started using the Varigrind long ago then bought the Varigrind 2 jig later. I do NOT like the new jig! I've read posts from others with the same comment. What I liked the least was that it is designed to keep the tip of the tool in the same place on the wheel all the time. That will tend to wear out that spot on the wheel. Some people do like it since it will keep you from slipping the gouge off the edge of the wheel and scaring the side of the gouge. Evidently some people do this a lot. I have not done this once with either with the Tormek or the Varigrind. I have a surplus Varigrind 2 jig now if someone wants it...

BTW, I sharpen skews by hand on the CBN and sharpen the bottom feeder gouge by hand as show to us by Chris Ramsey the cowboy hat guy.

JKJ

Re: Sharpening Help

John K Jordan

Oh, BTW Doug - if you ever decide to sell your Tormek I might be interested. But if I were you, I'd keep it!

JKJ

Re: Sharpening Help

Lyle Jamieson

Here is my YouTube video on my sharpening process. http://youtu.be/0zUph9zEjck

I completely agree with JKJ about ......

JamieDonaldson

...not liking the Varigrind 2 jig. It limits the shapes and also several different tools that can be sharpened using that set-up.

Re: Sharpening Help

Joe Fleming

The varigrind has two adjustments: the swinging arm of the jig and the distance of the bar-cradle in and out of the base-holder. The bar primarily adjusts the grind angle on the wings of the tool, and the swinging arm adjusts the angle at the nose. If you keep this in mind, you can sneak up an many different grinds quite successfully. Joe

Re: Sharpening Help

Doug Reynolds

I will keep the Tormek as one can never have enough tools or, sharpening stuff. I am primarily a flat woodworker and use the Tormek for chisels and plane blades.

Thanks for all the advice.

I look at it the other way...

GaryG in MD

First, I set the rotating jig arm to get the wing angle I want.

Then I put the jig arm into the cradle and move the bar/cradle in and out to get the nose angle I want. ...GG

one more source to consider  *LINK*

Mike Potts

You might want to go to Thompson Lathe Tools. Doug made a video on sharpening.


http://http://thompsonlathetools.com/

Re: I look at it the other way...

Lyle Jamieson

Sorry Gary, Joe has it correct.

Re: I look at it the other way...

John K Jordan

The Tormek gouge jig manual has a good explanation of the THREE factors that contribute to the the shape of the grind, the jig angle, the tool protrusion, and the distance of the pivot from the wheel. (There is another variable too, how far you swing the jig, and even another, how long you grind on the wings vs the nose)

Look at the chart on the page numbered 82.

http://tormek.com/media/448711/hb-10-en-v101-svd-185.pdf

I set mine to notch #3 for most gouges. I set the Varigrind to match the grind I get from the Tormek jig.

The Tormek jig is not the same as the Varigrind but the principle is the same.

BTW, the Tormek jig make it easier to take off the heel or even smoothly round the heel of a gouge.

JKJ

Lyle,

GaryG in MD

With all due respect, I don't see it as a matter of "correct".

I don't wish to create a long chain here, but I do it the way I do it, and it works for me.

I understand my grinds, and I can reproduce them or create new ones that are the same or different.

I could be wrong, but I expect that a number of people also set the nose angle with the bar/basket extention.

Anyway, the proof is in the pudding.

Thanks for pointing out the difference in thinking. I find it interesting, but I'm not really surprised -- with only two variables (not counting the length of the gouge tip out of the jig), I expect that it's really a moot point. ...GG

Re: Lyle,

Lyle Jamieson

It does matter when we are trying to show new turners how to sharpen. Every grinder is different, and every grinding wheel is different. It is difficult when many well known and well respected turners say the exact opposite directions. Did you look at my video?? The confusion comes from the fact that the two adjustments influence each other. If I move the cradle bar/basket position it changes both the tip and the side angles. The rotating jig arm adjustments and the basket position are influencing each other. We set them independently but they influence each other.

The best way to show this is to think about the side angle setting first. Put a bowl gouge, with a swept back grind, in the jig. Use any setback you like. Now lock down the basket position, somewhere close to where you might want it for your grind. Now put the jig in the basket with the grinder off. Hold the bevel of the side grind against the grinding wheel, so the grinding wheel is rubbing the middle of the side grind. Loosen the rotating jig arm knob and move the jig arm back and forth by moving the gouge handle. Leave the side grind touching the grinding wheel. What did you notice?? The movement of the jig arm did not influence the side angel. To set the side angle we need to move the basket position. But when we move the basket position it also moves the tip angle. Very confusing. The bottom line is we need to know which adjustment changes what. Only then can we set our jig to the desired angles by setting the side, setting the tip, setting the side again and setting the tip again. Doing the settings twice will result in a very close duplication of any grind usable.

I agree

GaryG in MD

that the two settings interact, which is what I was saying. We probably end up at the same point either way, particularly after iteration.

Doug Thompson recommends the method that I'm using. The method I am using is also the method recommended in the Winer 2006 American Woodturner article by Kirk DeHeer.

Perhaps if I were trying to start totally from scratch to match another random grind, it might matter, and I would have to iterate, but I rarely change the grinds on my tools, and when I do, I know what I want and don't try to match them to anything. I know how to set the pivot arm to get the side angle I want on tools with given nose angles, so I just set that first and then do the nose angle with the bar/basket distance. It's very quick and efficient, and it works for me.

Of course we're not even talking about two other variables -- the length of the gouge sticking out of the jig (over which there seems to be some difference of opinion) and the height of the jig. For my Ellsworth gouge, I use the Ellsworth jig, the Ellsworth nose distance (not the Thompson nose distance), and to meet his higher height requirement, I add a shim in the basket to lift it up a bit higher. That works too.

We all do what works for us.

Re: I agree

Bill Blasic

With students or those who may seem too shaky to turn them loose on a grinder I use the Sharp Fast Sharpening System. It is like the Vari-Grind II on steroids. Yes it will groove the center of a stone but I know that they are not going to slide of the stone and have an accident. That has happened and luckily there were no injuries but the stone had to be replaced.

I myself now mainly use the Vector Sharpening Fixture and I show all the students this and the Wolverine Sharpening System. If they are going to use the Wolverine I show them Doug Thomson's setup and suggest they use that to start with as to where to set up the Vari-Grind Attachment. Once they have experience they can do what they want. My focus is to have them using sharp tools from the get go for a much better turning experience.

Re: I agree

Lyle Jamieson

"Perhaps if I were trying to start totally from scratch to match another random grind, it might matter"

That is why it DOES matter. That is what beginners are doing. I am not trying to teach you how to sharpen, but I want to give beginners tools that will work. Yes, I know Doug and others have the opposite, backwards directions. That's what makes it so confusing and difficult for beginners.

If you do the exercise I described you will see the dynamics or engineering involved to set the jig to an existing grind out of the box. If you buy a Thompson, or Jamieson, or Ellsworth gouge, it would be nice to set the grinder if you want to keep it that way?? The rules are important.

Re: I agree

John K Jordan

I agree with Gary and the way he describes is one the way I prefer to set the grind. I also agree there are many ways to the same objective. With all due respect, I pay very little attention to anyone's suggestion that something related to woodturning should be done a certain way.

For the example of Thompson's grind: I love Doug Thompson dearly and his tools (I have 49 at last count - they make great presents for new turners with limited means). I buy them for the steel. But I use NONE of them with the grind they came with. Same with Sorby, etc. I do try tools with a maker's or expert's grind but I consider that a starting point. For example, I bought another Thompson tool from Glenn Lucas just to try out his grind.

I use what I find works for me, and so do most of the better and more creative turners I know. I consider the maker's grind a good starting point for beginners, at least until they explore other grinds for themselves. I realize some beginners never explore and never change. More power to them; whatever works.

In fact, I think the subtleties of the actual angles of the nose, wings, and length of the sweep back don't matter nearly as much as the consistency. I looked at the tools of many extremely good turners and the grinds are often very similar but guess what, they are all different. And they all work for them! To insist someone else use a a particular grind because some expert does seems unnecessary to me.

I think the consistency of a grind on a turning tool is far more important than the actual details. For example, I keep up to five Thompson 3/8" spindle gouges all ground identically. When one gets dull I swap it in the handle for another one and hardly miss a revolution. The next gouge behaves exactly as the previous.

I also keep a few spindles, skews, and bowl gouges with slightly different grinds and I change these to experiment. When reducing a cylinder, for example, I might use several tools and try them out on various practice cuts. This way I've learned that some skew grinds work far better in some situations and on some woods. That's how the grind I use now on my spindle gouges evolved.

I don't care in the least how the best turner in the world sharpens his signature gouge. I suspect he also has variations in his own shop. I also suspect he could walk into any shop, grab any razor sharp gouge, and turn circles around any of us after spending just a few seconds getting the feel for that tool. In my opinion skill trumps grind. (Oops, hope that's not a too-political statement for a forum these days!!)

JKJ

Re: Sharpening Help *LINK*

George Balock

Doug,

I have adapted the Wolverine sharpening system using Dick Geiger's Pro Sharp system. Here is a link to an article I wrote about it.


http://www.balockwoodturning.com/Balock_Woodturning/Blog/Entries/2015/5/31_Jet_Wet_Grinder_with_the_vertical_solution_Pro_Sharp_4X.html

what John said!