Recommendation for the best 5/8" parobolic flute

Re: Recommendation for the best 5/8" parobolic flu

john lucas

I wish people published what their flutes are because I just don't know. Hope someone can answer your question. I think, but don't know, that the Glen Lucas tool is a parabolic flute.

Re: Recommendation for the best 5/8" parobolic flu

GaryG in MD

I'm not going to take the time to do the research right now, but I have it in my head that the Ellsworth Signature gouge has a parabolic flute. This may be correct or not, but there you go. You can do the research. ;-) ...GG

Re: Recommendation for the best 5/8" parobolic flu

robo hippy

Well, there is the Ellsworth, the Glen Lucas, I think Oneway has one, Lyle Jamieson has a Doug Thompson made parabolic flute, and I am sure there are others.

robo hippy

Huh, you can give gouge recommendations? LOL

Hamlet 2060 *LINK*

Mike Brazeau

Hamlet 2060 5/8". Made in the same factory as the Crown which makes the Ellsworth and is the same profile. I believe you can also get the Ellsworth as a Crown PM. Have had the 2060 for 15 years or more and would not trade for anything.


The Joy of Wood

Glenn Lucas from Hamlet

George Taylor

Generally the same as Ellsworth but you also get a chart for the various sharpening jigs to replicate his grind.

You can also order direct from Glenn's website where you might save some $$$'s on the exchange rate; plus you are more directly helping another turner. You might ask him to touch up the factory grind personally.

As you can surmise, I am a Glenn Lucas fan.

Are any of the flutes actually parabolic?

Jeff Smith

I've been kicking this around for a while - is the parabolic flute based on a true parabolic contour to the flute walls? I would assume that would mean the flute walls form a continuous curve - or no straight sections - from the bottom of the flute to the top of the flute walls. Just checked the Jamieson gouge I bought (made by Thompson). It's been described as a parabolic flute, but it's not a true parabolic flute - at least if the flute walls forming a parabola are what constitutes a parabolic flute. The sides of the flute walls are straight, not curved.

Supposedly the Artisan SuperFlute gouges sold by Craft Supplies are described as parabolic flutes, but I don't have one in front of me to check. The Crown Ellsworth signature gouges are supposed to be parabolic, too.

Can anyone go check and see if the flute walls actually form a parabola? Hold a straight edge along the flute wall and look for daylight near the middle - to check?

Just curious.

Re: Recommendation for the best 5/8" parobolic flu

Joe Fleming

I've been using Sorby gouges for years. I love their parabolic flutes. FWIW, I have Sorby, Glaser, Thompson, Crown, Henry Taylor, and Hamlet gouges, and I think an unhandled Oneway bowl gouge. I would dare say there are others, but I don't recall.

OK - My name is Joe. "Hi, Joe". I am a bowl gouge addict.

Re: Recommendation for the best 5/8" parobolic flu

john lucas

Joe since you seem to have a lot can you try and explain why you prefer them. I borrowed an Ellsworth from a friend to play one weekend and didn't see that it did any more for me than my Thompson V gouge. Maybe it's how I use them. Of course I didn't sharpen it a whole lot or spend any real time. It worked just fine but I could pick up either tool and make the same cut. I just curious and trying to learn.

Flute shape is probably irrelevant

steven antonucci

Hate to burst the bubble, but I'm going to call BS on the flute shape mattering.

On a bowl gouge, there are 5 cutting areas. The left wing, the left round on the nose, the nose, the right round on the nose, and the right wing. Generally speaking, you want the wings to be straight edges so that they act like skews in a cut. Cannot think of a single cut you would make with just the nose, save perhaps an entry cut?

This leaves the rounds on either side of the nose. 3/16" in length, give or take. Simply put, nowhere near enough cutting length to make the minute difference between a V nose and a parabolic matter.

There may be other benefits like sharpening and retaining a shape is easier in one vs. the other, or how efficiently they eject chips... but edge wise... nope.

S

Re: Recommendation for the best 5/8" parobolic flu

Joe Fleming

I don't generally like "V" gouges because they clog up with ships. As much as I'm a fan of Jerry Glaser tools, the flutes clog easily. I use my Glasers for shear scraping mostly. I found that the Crown was too "V" - same issue for me.

Doug Thompson makes a couple of different flutes. I have the "U" flute. It is wide and deep. One thing I have noticed is that, since the flute is wide, the wings are thinner, which leads to a little more chatter. Grinding the nose of this tool is not my problem. Grinding the wings is. Because of the wide flute, there is less steel for a swept back grind. I need to give this more opportunity before judging too harshly.

Other than Crown, the English tools all perform similarly. I said Oneway in my first post. I went and checked. It is an Artisan brand from Craft Supplies. I think it is Henry Taylor made. I find that the deep flute with a parabola, has a narrower nose, while the wings still have plenty of beef for shear scraping, if you use a swept-back grind. "V" gouges seem to have the deepest and narrowest flutes which tend to clog.

Most of my gouges are rehandled in Trent Bosch handles. Several have shot in the handles for vibration damping.

Re: Recommendation for the best 5/8" parobolic flu

Joe Fleming

Responding to Steve's BS call, I respectfully disagree. Flute shape matters gretly in the shape of the grind you can achieve. The more narrow the flute (like "V"), the longer and straighter you can grind the wings on a swept back grind. The diagonal intersection of the straight side of a "V" flute is a straight line. The diagonal intersection on a parabola is a long gradual arc. The "U" produces a curved profile. You can argue that one can grind any of these "flat". That is true in one dimension only. The problem is that the more curved the flute, the steel behind the edge will change profiles more with a curved flute like a "U" than a "V" flute.

Re: Recommendation for the best 5/8" parobolic flu

David Gilbert

I have "V" and parabolic fluted bowl gouges. I have taken classes with Glenn Lucas and Stuart Batty who both strongly prefer the parabolic flutes but use pretty different grinds. I have an Ellsworth, Lucas, Sorby, and even Penn State that are all parabolic. I also have Thompson "V" gouges. Note that Doug Thompson makes a parabolic Jamieson Signature Bowl Gouge that you can only buy from Lyle. All of these work but the biggest difference is in sharpening. With the "V" the transition from the straight wing to the nose often causes a divot that is hard to avoid. With the continuous parabolic curve sharpening is easier.

I used Glenn Lucas' sharpening system on my CBN wheels with great success. It was precise and pretty easy. Batty helped me do his 40/40 grind and I have switched over this for most of my gouges and it is even faster. It took me about 6" of my Ellsworth gouge to learn to sharpen it and that was with the Lucas system. I wish that I had found the Penn State ones first.

Since you want a recommendation, I would go with either a Lucas or the Jamieson.

Cheers,

David

Re: Flute shape is probably irrelevant

ebd

Parabolic or not - personally I find the U shaped flute to be easier to use and more forgiving than the V shaped flute. I've got a number of both and use them all. Others milage may vary.

OK - I just went out to my shop and checked. I have 2 go-to bowl gouges - a big (1/2" - 5/8" ???) U flute Sorby and a 3/8" special steel that I don't remember the brand of or where I got it. I actually bought a second because it is so good. I also have a V flute that is the same size as the Sorby.

The Sorby and the 3/8" have a flute that is curved along the entire length (show light when tested with a straight edge). The V has a flute that is only curved at the very tip. The sides are straight.

Steve, I have to differ. The flat side may be fine for the outside of a bowl or for spindle turning. For the inside of the bowl it is a menace - try doing the inside of a bowl with a small straight skew if you don't believe me.

On the inside surface of a bowl the straight side of the flute on a V will give a single point of contact at/near the tip. If you use the whole side inside a bowl you will get two points of contact - a catch waiting to happen. The curved side of the U flute has either a single, short or longer cutting point of contact depending on the radius of the inside of the bowl. This works along the entire length of the side flute.

Who cuts the inside of a bowl with the wing?!

steven antonucci

If I choose to cut the inside with a long wing gouge, I simply roll the flute over to 2 o'clock and the wing is nowhere near the surface.

I rarely cut the inside with this grind anymore. Prefer traditional.

Steven

Re: Recommendation for the best 5/8" parobolic flu

robo hippy

Hmm, well, long wings are good for shear scraping on the outside of bowls, but I prefer scrapers since I don't have to roll them over so far. Wings for shear scraping on the inside, ) nose for shear scraping on the inside of a bowl. Gouges just don't cut it for shear scraping the inside of a bowl.

How far down you want to go on your wings depends on how much flute you have.

For nose grinds, the U fluted gouge from Doug works better for a 45/45 nose grind, but not so well for a swept back design. The long wings on a swept back grind gouge do allow for more metal to be on the wood for a pass, but again, more useful on the outside where you can apply the wing, but not useful on the inside where most of the cutting is done more with the nose since you can't drop the handle as much. For roughing, to remove a lot of wood in a hurry, you don't have to take off 1 inch wide shavings as they tend to be very thin. I can take off 3/32 inch thick shavings with a 5/8 gouge and still be pulling off the same amount of wood. "Cut the wood as it wishes to be cut." Heck, we all know the wood does not wish to be cut. Roughing cuts do not have to be pretty. They are called roughing cuts for a reason.

I don't like deep V flutes like the Glaser, it does plug up. I have no idea about 'thinner wings' making for more chatter. I cut more with the nose since I prefer to hold my tools more level and cut more with the nose. If the tool is chattering, I move the tool rest closer...

Of course, for heavy roughing, nothing beats a good scraper.

Which flute design works best? Well, I haven't tried a Glen Lucas grind, and I don't use the swept back designs any more. With the ones I have, most at 45/45 (the 40/40 is just too pointy for me, and more like a detail gouge), some times on a piece of wood, one will work better than the other, and the next time it changes. Why? No idea other than 'because'.

Shot filled handles??? Never understood that one. From a production turner's point of view, that is way too much weight to have to move around for a day. To dampen vibration, move the tool rest closer.

I figure a lot of the 'vibration' issues come from using straight bowl rests on bowls, which are all curved. Part of why I use the curved bowl rests is because I can keep them closer to the wood, and don't have to move the rest as often to keep it close to the wood. With straight rests, I think we all play the 'how far can I hang out so I don't have to move it' game. Just adds to the work load... I don't need 1 inch wings on a gouge any more than I need a 1 1/2 inch wide scraper.

robo hippy

History of the Parabolic Flute *LINK*

David Walser

Roy Child has an interesting history of the development of the parabolic flute and its advantages over a V or U shaped flute. I've linked his article, below. One thing I found interesting: The advantages of the parabolic shape are reduced by extending the wings back.


Bowl Gouges - The Story of the Superflute

Re: Are any of the flutes actually parabolic?

Lyle Jamieson

When I had Doug Thompson make a special flute for my Signature gouge I had him make the flute wider and deeper than the other parabolic tools. It is not a perfect parabolic, but real close. The flute gives you more versatility and more friendly and a larger sweet spot. The versatility of doing everything with one tool is why the parabolic flute is so important. With Thompson tools I have the best steel, and made in USA, with a better flute.

Re: History of the Parabolic Flute

Roger Chandler

David, I want to thank you for this file on the "History of the Superflute gouge"

That write-up makes more sense to me than any of the discussions on message boards that I have seen since joining the forums several years ago. Gracious!

Re: History of the Parabolic Flute

Brad Vietje

That's pretty cool, and mirrors my view that there is little room in turning for strident, dogmatic views (except, mine, of course!), since there are SO many variables in play.

What some call a bowl might be called a plate by a neighbor, or I may call something a bowl that you'd call a deep vase. Thus, when we describe what we make, cuts we use, and tools we employ, photos are essential.

I've also run into turners that only use the "left" side of the gouge with the flute up. Some with a traditional straight-across grind, and others have only used an Irish grind, O'Donnell, or Ellsworth grind (all of which are subtly different, BTW). Sometimes a specific grind and flute geometry evolved together to tackle a specific job, and doesn't work as well for other uses, or perhaps the way you or I want to use it.

We come away from all this stuck in the same place we started: whatever works best for you is what's best for you.

As an aside, years ago I bought a "bent" bowl gouge as described in the Roy Childs article from Robert Chapman (BCWA Tools at the time). It was designed for getting clean cuts in deep bowls and vases, a shape I really like, so I thought it would be a good tool to have. I've hardly ever used it, mostly because it has an aggressive grind from a 6" wheel. I will probably regrind it with a convex grind, and I'm betting it will be the next great thing, and help me retire a filthy rich SOB with an island in the Caribbean HA! Never happen.

Safe spinning,

Brad Vietje

Newbury, VT

losts of interesting info.

john lucas

I use a thompson V mostly. I have never had it clog. Early on I had trouble with the dip when grinding just off the nose. Guess I learned to avoid that problem because I never have it any more.

I have several other no name gouges that are probably copies of someone elses. These are U's. What I find different in the U vs V is the thickness of the wing. depending on how you grind you can end up with a very thin wing (which cuts fantastically if you use it handle down in a pull cut) It won't hold an edge as long because it is so thin. If you switch over to a Michelson grind where it sort of rolls the tool over on the wings you get a less acute edge which is stronger and according to Johannes less catchy.

Steve said he never uses the nose of the tool. I use it a lot in push cuts for final passes. I can get the wood to cross the tip at a very steep shear angle which gives very clean cuts.

A bowl gouge is such a complicated tool in that we all grind them slightly different and then use them differently. Interesting observations. Which we could stand next to each other and watch how we use the tool so we could learn the diffferences.

Re: Who cuts the inside of a bowl with the wing?!

ebd

When cutting with a pull cut, which I often use. Sometimes to get a very clean, finished surface, often to get just the proper curve. Different strokes ...

Re: Who cuts the inside of a bowl with the wing?!

Braden

This stuff cracks me up a little. Asking who cuts the inside of a bowl with the wings was actually a very helpful question. I will use the right hand wing heavily when roughing a bowl, but the handle of my gouge is dramatically different than the approach in the video of this thread. I try to utilize the wing heavily to take advantage of side-grain peeling cuts. As the final shape approaches, I will also use the left hand wing on some finishing cuts.

Paying attention to how much of the cutting edge profile is engaged in any one cut is quite revealing to me.

On the complex shape of a bowl gouge, observing the interaction with the wood's contact from first contact to last should reflect the intended action: scraping, slicing, other.

Often times the leading edge could be unintentionally scraping while the trailing edge is rolled into a slicing action, but the resulting surface has had the fibers sliced so a fine finish is possible.

Complicated problem.