How long should your tool handle be? *LINK*

Re: How long should your tool handle be?

robo hippy

I am becoming a fan of his. Way too many measurements for me to figure, but his last comment is perhaps the most relevant about paying attention to the tool and how it is cutting...

robo hippy

Re: How long should your tool handle be?

John K Jordan

I liked his comments on the short handled tools. Many tools intended for spindle turning have handles way too long for me. Frank Penta mentioned once that turners in the "trade" almost always used tools with very short handles. A visitor to Frank's shop/school will see racks of tools with tiny handles.

Some of my tools, for example all my small negative rake scrapers, have no handles. They work fine and with no handle take up very little space on the shelf. I also use some skews and even a Thompson roughing gouge (made from a round bar) with no handle. For anyone inclined to worry about this, don't bother - it is very safe when used appropriately. (I mentioned this once and someone about panicked - I guess he imagined it was an invitation for a sharp tang to puncture my hand!)

Of course, I use other tools with long, heavy handles. As he said, it's all about leverage.

JKJ

He sure needs to clean the lens......

JamieDonaldson

....on that overhead camera!

Re: How long should your tool handle be?

Keith Tompkins

One important thing to think about concerning tool handle length. I use long handles on almost all my tools, including spindle tools for a simple reason; by holding the handle tucked against my side I have far more tool control than trying to control the cut with just my hands and arms. Subtle body movements allow extremely fine tool control. Of course, there are times when this style isn't possible, but the long handles still work for me.

He lost me....

Dick Coers

when he started talking about hanging the bowl gouge 5" over the tool rest. I know he might be making a point, but he said that is why that handle has the length. That's a crazy length over the tool rest! And yeah, that overhead camera looks like it's in the clouds.

Re: He lost me....

robo hippy

Yea, I would never hang that far off the tool rest. He was using Stuart's formulas. I do remember looking at Stuart's handles and thinking some of them were way too long. Much easier to move the tool rest in closer.

robo hippy

Re: How long should your tool handle be?

Joe Fleming

I don't really have a horse in this race, but Stuart Batty once explained tool handles like this: Spindle tools are designed to be used in front of you more than to the side. And, a lot of spindle work is most efficiently accomplished ambidextrously, so switching back and forth in front of you matters too.

The rule I follow, more or less, is that a tool needs to be 5x longer on the handle end than the piece of metal on the other side of the tool rest. If not, the leverage gets to be a fight between you and the lathe. Seems to work for me.

Joe

I agree with Keith

john Lucas

When I first started turning green wood I was introduced to it by Joe Looper. He had a lathe with a 54" swing and had tools that were up to 8' long. That was before the captured bar systems and the long tools were there to counteract the leverage.

Over the years I've tried most length tools. I have tools from 4" long to about 3 feet if you include handle and blade. Obviously the really short ones are for my ultra miniatures.

I use my body to control the tool as much as possible so I prefer handles that are about 16". A little longer for bowl roughing tools to keep better control. I do have a selection of tools for turning Christmas ornaments and other small work that are about 8" to 10" over all but I still use my body when using these. I kind of lock my arms so they become tool extensions and then move my hips and upper body to control the tool. It allows you to make extremely fine adjustments to the tool position.

As far as spindle turing, still the same. I do switch hands a lot when doing different cuts but I simply drop the handle in front of me and switch to the other hand.

The only time I find long handles getting in the way is sharpening. Most of the time it's not a problem. I simply stand to the side. A few tools are little hard to sharpen this way so they fit in handles where the blade can be removed very quickly. I learned this from Clay Foster and it still serves me well.

For those who disagree with Brian

David Walser

Dick, John, et al,

You all have good reasons for disagreeing with Brian. Dick, I don't think Brian makes a regular habit of extending his large bowl gouge 5" over the tool rest. But, with a deep bowl with a narrow opening, he might.

John, I was taught to keep my turning tools tucked in tight to my side and to use my body for controlling the cut. That's still how I use most of my tools. It's NOT how I use some of my tools, such as my D-way beading tools, my point tool, or my skew. As my lathe keeps getting closer to my stomach (the lathe's bolted to the floor and I'm standing in the same spot, but somehow the lathe has started leaning towards me such that my stomach is closer to the lathe than it used to be), I've found it more comfortable to use my skew with a short handle. YMMV.

One of the reasons I like Brian's videos is that he explains why he holds a particular view. You may disagree with his opinion, but at least you'll know why.

Re: He lost me....

John K Jordan

>when he started talking about hanging the bowl gouge 5" over the tool

I thought the point was the extended length might be needed for getting deep into a bowl. Some people use a curved rest or extend a straight rest deep into a bowl to help minimize the overhang. I believe it was Glenn Lucas (I'd have to look at my notes) who demonstrated at TAW how this advantage was negated when using a bowl gouge on the inside to make a continuous finish cut from the rim to the center of the bottom. In this case, the tool must pivot on the rest close to and nearly touching the rim at the left so any part of the rest inside the bowl is wasted.

I tried this cut with his grind and I see the point. I can also see the point of some more practice. (ha!)

He was so good at the continuous inside cut I suspect he could do it with his eyes closed. Of course there's that little thing about getting a bit of practice by turning many thousands of bowls! What an amazingly prolific turner.

JKJ

Re: For those who disagree with Brian

Dick Strauss

Spindles-short handles

Shorter tool handles for some spindle work makes sense. You don't always need the leverage and turning the corner on a bead makes for a much smaller arc at the end of the handle with a shorter handle (there is much less distance for the end to travel with the shroter handle and you likely won't find your body in the way of the smaller smooth arcing motion). You also have better feel with a shorter handles since you don't have as much mechanical advantage and tend to not force the cut.

Spindles-long handles

For a long tapered spindle I want a longer handle so that the handle can be tucked into the body for a smoother cut. I also prefer a long handle for roughing since i don't need to feel a cut.

Bowls-short handles

The detailed areas are more easily turned with a shorter handle for better feel and ease of motion.

Bowls-long handles

For most bowls, I want longer handles for most of the turning/roughing.

My $0.00000002...

All you have to do is snap off a tool once

Dick Coers

or bend the tang on a roughing gouge, or clip the tool on the chuck jaws, and you learn to not hang 5" of steel over the tool rest. That's what I have been told anyway! LOL Tool handle length to overhang proportion goes out the door when that happens.

No one does that better than JoHannes

Dick Coers

and he uses a special grind and a long "J" rest to get the depth in his hats. But in my experience, you get very limited control when you hang that amount of tool over a rest. The cuts have to by very fine to not get a chatter or tool pattern in the wood.

Re: For those who disagree with Brian

john Lucas

I don't disagree with Brian. He makes good videos that are very informative and help people choose what to do. I'm just offering my opinion on what I do. Beading tools and 3 point tools have short handles out of necessity. Same with my ornament hollowing tools. Now that I'm married I'm working on my turning muscle. Apparently you have worked harder on it that i have.

Re: For those who disagree with Brian

robo hippy

I guess it all comes down to the farther off the tool rest you hang, the smaller the cutting surface should be.

robo hippy

Q. Does he constantly re-handle tools?

Geoff Whaling

A couple of observations -

He makes some good points however,

If Brian's opinion about the total length of tool steel plus handle to overhang is to hold true then he must regularly re-handle his short handled skews. At some point the length ratio becomes unsafe as the tool steel gets shorter over time from sharpening.

His turning stance appears quite uncomfortable during turning perhaps due to the fixed spindle height from the non-adjustable Powermatic stand. Perhaps he could make significant gains by modifying his work area / lathe spindle height so that he can turn in a more ergonomic stance and thus reduce stress on his body. This may also counter some of the tool handle length issues he may experience.

The diameter of the tool handle at the ferrule appears undersized for the tang on some of his skews and the tang does not appear to be fully seated on some scrapers as well. This may be a hazard in certain applications of the tool - however he appears well aware of those hazards & the risks they present.

Discussions about tool handle length must also include warnings about tang length and suitable material left in the handle to resist the anticipated leverage forces involved. A long handle will amplify the hazard of not having sufficient tang embedment, no ferrule, or an inappropriately sized ferrule with no "meat" left in the handle surrounding the tang. The safety of a "tool" relies upon all of these factors being sized appropriately - a weak link in a chain. Wood turning safety requires a holistic approach

If you observe spindle turners with extensive production turning backgrounds due to time economies they tend to use only a few tools which are suitable for a wide range of cuts on that project. Therefore the handle length tends to suit the "worst case" cuts with accommodations made for other cuts. They will have a few "tool sets" to suit the scale of the turning projects.

Some of his reasoning to support his argument about particularly the position of the skew when making bead cuts is fundamentally flawed. Best explained with Alan Batty's excellent video on spindle turning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfeLAHQSbqk

Re: How long should your tool handle be?

Brad Vietje

I like Brian's videos. Had to laugh when he shows a long handle on the 2-sided outside bowl scraper, which he's measuring at 9:00. Mine has NO handle, but I don't reach very far over the rest with it.

5" overhang -- pretty rare -- like Dick says, maybe when making a Hannes-style Range Rider hat.

Safe spinning,

Brad Vietje

Newbury, VT