Following John Lucas' post about the chuck wear on his knockoffs, I thought I would relate a story. I have a good friend that has rebuilt vintage Delta machinery for decades. (He now has 3, 14" Delta bandsaws in his shop being restored, he sold the 4th one.) It's how he equipped his shop at the beginning, but now does it for a hobby. It's his experience now, that the Chinese import machinery market has killed the vintage rebuild market. He has trouble even getting a single bid on Ebay or Craigslist, on machinery that would have had a line out the door to purchase 10 years ago. His machines are like new when he sells them, new paint and all. It's a mystery to me, but seems to be the new preference. Turners that have purchased one of the new Griz lathes, may now be surprised to see only two bearings in the headstock of a machine sold for high capacity turning. Maybe this trend will turn around when the shorter life of the imports becomes known, but maybe the throw away thinking will prevail.
I have been very happy with all the used American made ww machines that I have bought over the past 25 years... Delta/Rockwell Unisaw, 12/14 Cabinet saw, Walker Turner 16 inch Bandsaw, Boice Crane 6 " Jointer, Powermatic 8 inch jointer, Atlas Drill Press These are all machines that will last for another lifetime and the info available at OWWM.org and VintageMachinery.org make it fun to use these great machines. It is sad to see people buy lesser machines and throw them out when the motors burn out
Hi Dick, Good post! I love vintage machinery, in fact, I thought there would be a big surge in old WW machinery, such as old cars, motorcycles, etc. but it so far hasn't happened. There may be several reasons; machinery is now fairly cheap, my delta bandsaw from the early 70's cost about $800.00 then, not much more now, even with inflation. Plus, there is a warranty, and not much worry about replacement parts. (maybe) This is a closeup of a segmented piece I did some years ago, the segments, compound miters, cut on my massive 1953 Craftsman/King Seely cabinet table saw. Look at how clean and accurate the cuts are for a 60+ year old machine. I have a Walker-Turner drill press from 1939 that is all original, with many parts that were previously unknown according to the old machinery website, such as the mechanism that raises and lowers the table, original work light, even the very rare belt cover. My friend John Siegel has the most incredible shop filled with vintage New Hampshire build equipment.
I think a larger and larger percentage of people coming into the market for machines. Simply don't know what they are missing. To me it's surprising that people usually only consider new equipment when your dollar can go so much farther. I have very little budget which led me to vintage machinery. I feel fortunate to not only have a shop of quality machines but to know them as well as I do through changing bearings, belts etc. give me cast iron and steel over pot metal and plastic any day.
Many of us grew up learning to repair things so it's fairly natural to see an older machine that often needs work and see an opportunity. Working at a Technical University for many years I was astounded how many students don't have the slightest mechanical skills. Couple that with cars and even home appliances that are more and more difficult to work on and you get a populace that simply has to buy new.
When I teach woodturning now I have to remember that you can't just say this lathe has a morse taper headstock. you have to explain what that is and how to use it properly.
Around me you rarely see vintage equipment. A lot of older junk equipement but not a lot of things like big bandsaws or even metal lathes. they do come up on occasion but rare. I used to get some sales catalogs that were nation wide. There seem to be a lot more vintage machines up north and on the east coast. I guess that was due to more industrialization where in the South it was farming.
I like old machines, but let’s face facts the world is changing. In the past everything made in china was junk but that is no longer true. They will happily make you junk or an IPhone it is all about what you want to pay for.
How many of us prefer to turn on a lathe designed before 1950? Before 1980? Why because in the past the USA made lots junk. 98% of old lathes are USA made junk.
The people looking at the old delta saws also see this new Laguna for not that much more.
Better resaw capacity winner Laguna
Better blade guides winner Laguna
Better bigger motor winner Laguna
Better tension release winner Laguna.
Better blade guard winner Laguna
Better fence winner Laguna
Better on /off switch winner Laguna
My bandsaw is made in USA junk when I think of upgrading a 14 inch delta is not on my list.
If we are just talking motors and standard switches, I would much prefer an old motor over a new Chinese one. And fairly certain the contacts and parts in a vintage motor starter are far superior to a new Chinese one. But there are definite improvements in other aspects of the machines. You are right about the new generation of lathes, but some new imports seem like more show than go. I agree that not all Chinese machinery is bad. You just get what you pay for. I was burnt by a horrible new Chinese made bandsaw that was sent back, so my opinion is prejudiced.
One category you left off was customer service. Based on my experience with Laguna unless there has been a marked change I will do without before I will spend ten cents on a Laguna product. That's not to say if an 18" Laguna band saw popped up on Craig's List I wouldn't look at it. I just wouldn't expect any help or support from the company if I had a problem.
stuart I feel the same and I'm going to watch closely the new Laguna Lathe sold by Woodcraft. They lathe seems to be of high quality and the price is good. It will be interesting to watch how Laguna handles any problems with the lathe.
When I was looking to upgrade my Bandsaw I bought the Mini max over the Laguna mostly because of Laguna's bad reputation. I bought mine used and had a switch problem. Mini max was incredibly helpful in trouble shooting the problem.
I agree with some of your assessment here Dick, but disagree with some as well. I think it is crucial for a perspective purchaser to understand the playing field on wood working machines and get good info, like we get on some of the forums such as WC, SMC,WoW etc. Actual users can provide great feed back on particular machines from real time usage.
Regarding the Grizzly G0766 that has two spindle bearings and which I own, and purchased with full up front knowledge of the headstock configuration, I know that some may find a moments pause about that. You mention they may be surprised......well, maybe.
What I think will be the real surprise to some, is that years down the road, there will be a great many that will be seen to have held up to the usage turners have placed on them, and the reputation of the lathe will become one of solid performance. Not that there might be a problem here and there experienced, and not that there has not also been a handful of these lathes that needed some adjustments or a replacement bearing out of the crate. From what I have been reading on some of the forums, the same is true for the Powermatic 3520b and the Jet 1642evs as well. Any unit can have an issue, and most have, but the company behind the unit is important for its ability to service or give technical support to the end user.
Given an ideal situation and money as no object, if a particular turner is a production turner and makes his living turning big, heavy and out of balance blanks, then ideally, a high end lathe built to heavy duty specs would be the way to go.......I think we both agree on that.....no disputes on my part. But the fact is that many turners who are not necessarily production turners, and who turn a variety of forms, both small and large, will find the large Grizzly lathe to be a capable unit with power and performance, that will serve their needs very well for years to come.
Given the savings over some of the higher end units on the market, the possible need to change out a couple of spindle bearings in a few years, seems very small in comparison to the $2k in savings. My former 18/47 lathe is now over 6 years old, is still going strong at our club with the original bearings in it, and it sees a lot of usage.
Related to the bandsaw issue.......I have used Powermatics, Jets [I have an 18" Jet in my shop] Delta's, a couple of generic 14" Taiwan units [one of which I owned for 12 years and replaced the motor on it with a Baldor motor] so like lathes, I have some experience with different makes. Two years ago, I purchased a Grizzly 14" G0555LX bandsaw, and of course did my homework. To my estimation, that saw is the finest 14" unit I have ever used. The premium roller bearing guides, top and bottom, the rack & pinion height adjustment feature, the best cam lock detensioning system I have ever seen on a 14" class saw, and the motor strength with cast iron, computer balanced wheels make it the smoothest 14" class saw I have ever used, and I have cut a lot of blanks on it.....with a good blade, that thing will hold its own with the larger 18" Jet in my shop any day, and is what I use most of the time now when cutting log blanks on my bandsaws.......it resaws beautifully as well. I do have the riser block for it, and use the Highland Hardware woodtuners blades on it.......it is a sweet performing machine.
My point is simply that if a person knows the machines, and gets the good stuff, those units can hold their own with anything on the market unless one is going for the professional and industrial units. For the average home shop, some of the current offerings from Grizzly or others can provide years of good and reliable performance. Bearings are consumable items on any machine, and with enough use will need replacement on most any unit.
I'm always impressed that you can see into the future Roger. Predicting the long term acceptance of that lathe for instance. I know there are some people that are not happy with it today. Some are just finding out that they took the guts and tool rest from a smaller machine and built a higher capacity machine. It didn't look like you knew that the bearings were the same. Personally, I would like them to be engineered to accept more capacity. The guy that got the bearing discussion going lately had just sent his new headstock into them to be rebuilt. I wonder what he thinks about the longterm acceptance? I never wore out an American made machine. I wore out a Grizzly 8" jointer in about 6 years. Pulled off the infeed table and the dovetails had three high spots that had worn. The machining was off and basically had an "S" curve in them. I had to tighten up the gibs in the most often used place, which then would not let me use the entire travel. My point is that with a lot of vintage machines you get decades of service, not years. I know you are plenty happy with the Chinese machines, but in my 45 years of woodworking, I've seen much better.
One problem with used equipment is many pieces were equipped with 3-phase motors. If you have never worked with old Oliver machinery you are really missing something.....their biggest problem was, once someone bought a piece of Oliver equipment, it was a several generation purchase. The stuff lasted forever, no repeat sales.
I don't think you and I are that far apart, Dick......geez, I have also seen some crappy stuff in the Asian made market. I had a crapsman jointer that was just a joke......it was my first jointer, and at that time some nearly 30 years ago, I did not possess the knowledge about machines I have today. Sloppy machining can cause a lot of headaches along the way!
Grizzly did correct the smaller banjo issue, with a pretty beefy upgrade, I might add......directly due to Shiraz Balolia's concern for his customers, and a little pressure from vocal customers like myself, no doubt!
Yep, there have been several hiccups out of the gate on the G0766, but you can count them on one hand, and that is out of hundreds of units that have been sold to date, from what I have been told. Statistically, I don't know if it is any better or any worse percentage wise with other Asian makes, but we do read of things happening to more "respected brands" on the forums including VFD issues, etc.......so probably in the ball park anyway, at least from what I have observed.
I cannot read the future......no one can on any machine we buy. Example- the 2015 Ram truck I purchased, I really like and it really performs...power, features galore, and great warranty...bought it after driving a couple Ford F150's, a Toyota Tundra full size, Chevy Silverado,and its twin GMC Sierra. Do I know if it will give me the years of reliable performance I hope.....that has yet to be played out, but I based my purchase on the last Dodge Truck I owned for over 18 years that was still going strong and which the only thing I ever had to do was a tune-up, clutch replacement, and a water pump [normal for a truck almost 19 years old when I traded it]
There will be no doubt people who read that and swear I could have gotten a better truck with the Ford or Chevy........hey, my experience, research on mechanical design, and the track record of the motor & drive train made me have good confidence in my decision to purchase it [plus a killer deal I got! ]
Each of us has to make those choices, and if they are informed choices, and made with care, then we will end up with what we end up with......to date most of my choices in both vehicles and woodworking machinery have played out to my advantage, and I have few regrets.......that crapsman jointer notwithstanding.
Just so you know.......I respect your experience and your opinion. You seem like a reasonable person, and a good guy.....blessings & good will to you!
"but you can count them on one hand, and that is out of hundreds of units that have been sold to date, from what I have been told"
I know I shouldn't ask, but can't help myself. And maybe I've even asked you before, but who at Grizzly is giving you statistics on problems with that lathe? I just can't imagine anyone outside of Grizzly is privy to that kind of factual information.
I have an old Delta, so I don't know what the Laguna saws are like.
I've had to demonstrate on a few of their lathes, which I would never want to own. We're not allowed to use foul language here, but their lathes are not a shining example of high quality & reliability.
A friend wanted to buy a high end bandsaw a few years ago so we went to Atlanta to the annual wood show and they had every type of machine you could imagine. After much looking he had narrowed it down to the Laguna and the Mini Max (unfortunately somehow we missed the really fabulous Powermatic). Anyway the Laguna was really an excellent machine with a lot of great features. After talking to people about their customer service he went with the Mini Max. We can only hope they have listened to all the complaints and straightened out because their machines at least on paper look excellent.
I visited a person in New Jersey in Nov 2013 to help him to tune his Laguna 14in bandsaw. The bandsaw was made in China, no surprise.
I was impressed with the design of the machine. Some nice features like the bearings for the blade support, hydraulic assist to hold up the table. It ran very smooth and quiet.
We got the bandsaw tuned up and it cut well. The person sent me an email last August that the bandsaw gets a lot of use and is still cutting perfect for his needs.
I have seen a video of a person cutting thin consistent 8in deep veneers on his Laguna 14in bandsaw
Only two data points but these would make me consider a Laguna if I were in the market.
I have a Grizzly G0513 17in bandsaw. Works for my the majority of my needs, although I am not able to get this to cut consistent veneers.
So I wonder if bandsaws are their specialty, and lathes a minor product for them? I was completely non-impressed with their lathes -- at least those made about 10 years ago, to be fair -- maybe they make good ones now?
Re: Does Laguna Actually Make a Good Bandsaw? *LINK*
john Lucas
Me too Brad until I saw this lathe. It looks very well made. Wish I had asked if I could turn on it but it was in a booth at the TAW symposium and he was demonstrating the Sorby spiraling tool so I just watched.
Agree that older/vintage machinery seems to be better built, more and heavier castings, and overall robust build quality. Not everyone has the mechanical ability to tear down and restore an older machine, so the new/replacement market serves them. I have a mix of old and new machines and love them all.
Laguna Tools-there were lots of threads floating around on many sites about their customer service, but as the owner of 2 of their machines, I have been satisfied with their customer service. Laguna heard all the stories and like any good company, did something about it. My only call to their customer service resulted in a call back within the hour, with a knowledgeable solution to my concern. And a follow up call the next day to see if I was taken care of. Not a sales person; just a satisfied customer who will buy from them again.
Now if I could just fine an older Delta/PM drill press with a table crank, I would be a happy camper.
I had known of Laguna and their bandsaw products for a long time. I started turning in 2010 so before this I was not looking into wood lathes.
Last year I was at a local turning club members house to help with tuning his lathe. He had a Laguna 1847. Same style as the Grizzly G0733. I only observed this operating for a short time. Nothing to write home about. Grizzly wood lathes were not their best product for a long time.
Perhaps the new Laguna REVO models, e.g., 1836 REVO and Grizzly equivalents G0799 and G0800 are an improvement. The REVO specifications look good. I have only seen the 1836 REVO at the local Woodcraft store, but not operating.
I looked at the 1836 REVO manual and as Dick Coers mentioned single bearing at either end of the spindle.
Only time will tell if the new models will change perceptions of the Laguna brand and wood lathes.
The local Woodcraft has sold a remarkable number of the Laguna 1836 in recent months. They say they have had no complaints. It looks good, but I haven't had a chance to actually try turning on one.
I have had a Laguna 16HD for 10 plus years now. It arrived damaged slightly, and since I didn't save the shipping carton, they said it was on me to fix it. The riser blade guide post was bent because it had a strap around it to keep it in place while in shipping. "yea, we have had problems with damage in shipping, but can't figure it out'. It had torn off one board on the pallet it was on. Well, I bent it back in place by arm... Other than that, one heck of a saw. 4.5 hp Baldor motor on it. BEAST! I love the ceramic blade guides. Runs strong and true. I have a friend with the 24 inch model, and he cuts 1/16 inch veneers with it. I don't understand why saws with that high of a post don't have a ball and socket type mount for the blade guide post so you can adjust it perfect so you don't need to adjust the blade guides if you go from a 2 inch high cut to a 16 inch high cut. The dust port does not suck, but that is true of every bandsaw I have ever seen. One of my next video clips is 'Bandsaw dust ports do not suck' and how I solved that one..... I don't really think there is a lot of differences in the mid range bandsaw quality. Customer service is another matter, and I would hope that Laguna has stepped that up since they are now marketing through Woodcraft.
Just to clarify. Laguna has usually brought their line of bandsaws in from Italy where I believe there are several other brand names such as Mini Max also made by the same manufacturer. Then they confused everyone by introducing the same style of saw but made in Taiwan and of course it was slightly cheaper. Seems Laguna are specialists in the bottom line! They don't manufacture anything but just buy from the cheapest source and stick their brand on it. I bought my Laguna LT 18 Italian about 3 years ago and paid the premium after reading lots of complaints about the cheaper version. I'm not entirely happy with the saw, but it so far hasn't quit or parts broken. However the fence and guide system could be better. Rikon now sells the identical design with different guides but the same fence for the lower price level and I would be looking to them if I was buying right now.
It seems that all the off shore machines are usually made in the same factories and different branding applied. The quality of the machines is entirely the responsibility of the individual brands and how good their specs are when they order a production run. So a Grizzly or Laguna or Rikon may all be the same design but made to a more stringent criteria for different brand names.
Luckily we now can do research via the 'net to find out which are the jewels and which are the lemons
This is a closeup of a segmented piece I did some years ago, the segments, compound miters, cut on my massive 1953 Craftsman/King Seely cabinet table saw. Look at how clean and accurate the cuts are for a 60+ year old machine. I have a Walker-Turner drill press from 1939 that is all original, with many parts that were previously unknown according to the old machinery website, such as the mechanism that raises and lowers the table, original work light, even the very rare belt cover. My friend John Siegel has the most incredible shop filled with vintage New Hampshire build equipment.
from vocal customers like myself, no doubt!
