Turned candle holders

Re: Turned candle holders

Dale Gillaspy

When you say "rules," I would like to know specifically what you are referring to. Building codes, Fire codes? Are these for use in a public place? If you are after something for personal use or a gift, You can do what you what. The metal inserts are to prevent melting wax from penetrating the wood.

Re: Turned candle holders

Chuck Engstrom

I'm thinking most about Consumer Product Safety Commission, which defines, for instance, the required size for baby rattles, and of course zillions of other things. Or about any other outfit which has taken an interest -- National Fire Protection Agency, for instance. ASTM has a "Standard Specification for Fire Safety for Candle Accessories" but they want $44 for me to see it, so I thought I'd inquire here first.

Thanks --Chuck

Aust experience.

Geoff Whaling

Chuck, I followed this through with "Product Safety Australia" when a permanent products ban was issued here for "combustible candle holders" in 2011. https://www.productsafety.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/981262

The response I received was that wooden candle holders esp those fitted with non-combustible candle cups were not likely to be regarded as "combustible" in the context of "normal use" and the applicable testing standard for the product ban. The real issue at the time was the cheap imported resin figurine "candle holders" which were identified as the likely cause of several house fires.

Consult with your insurance carrier

Ken Vaughan

There are two concerns to look at closely

One is criminal liability

The other is tort liability that you get insurance protection to cover. Check with the insurance carrier to be sure you are not going towards something that will compromise your liability coverage.

Re: Turned candle holders

Brad Vietje

I know my wife grabbed a pair at a yard sale that are all wood, so if one fell asleep and the candle burned all the way down...

I will put metal inserts in them just in case.

Unfortunately, and I so much hate to say this, I think Ken is right about a legal opinion, and we can all predict the outcome. If everyone were lawyers, NOTHING would ever happen, because you might get hurt. Humans would have died off 20,000 years ago because the use of spears to fend off and hunt for wild animals would have been too dangerous.

What a sad state of affairs.

Safe spinning,

Brad Vietje

Newbury, VT

Re: Consult with your insurance carrier

Mark Trenier

I guess nothing made from wood would be safe--it all catches on fire. I made an Advent wreath with wooden "candles" since our insurance carrier at the school would not let us have real candles because candles burn. I was then told the wooden candles would have to go because wood is a fire hazard. You only losed when lawyers get involved. Never sell anything, you are always liable.

Re: Consult with your insurance carrier

Chuck Engstrom

I understand the idea of civil liability but puzzled by the suggestion of criminality. What do you have in mind?

Thanks

Re: Consult with your insurance carrier

Kenneth Vaughan

The OP used the words "rules/regulations/requirements".

Disclaimer: Not an attorney but have had roles with safety engineering in work life.

The words used by the OP are good for consideration that there are considerable numbers of jurisdictions with a variety of laws, ordinances, regulations, and such, many of which do have misdemeanor consequences. Misdemeanor offences put one into the realm of places where there is discretion of as to charges and prosecution. Most insurance policys for tort liability have little protection for costs when one is charged in a court with violations. Your vehicle insurance has very little for you when charged into court. Because a vendor has little control after sale, the one of the risks of unintended consequences is usage that could be put one into the position of being charged. Had a friend a number of years ago who was charged though a chain of such events and eventually got clear, but at great expense of emotion, cash, and reputation.

At the same time, I was specific about talking to your own insurance carrier. Most insurance carriers do have staff who can help with risk management considerations.

The world is full of "risk managers" (especially in the public sector) who seek to avoid any risk and claims on their insurance carrier. That is why you will want to talk to your own insurance carrier and read the policy carefully.

A note with candles --- there is a reason that there are so many LED candles on the market and how much they copy the appearance of the kind that use flames. There are a lot of places which do not allow open flames because of fire risks. I just recently finished making holders with sconces to use these replicas to assure the meeting of policy for open flames. The remote control on and off made the customer very pleased. With modern energy conservation energy conservation environments, the smoke from candles is of greater concern.

Re: Consult with your insurance carrier

Dave Paine

If the lawyers state wooden candles are a fire hazard, have they also banned paper and books.....

I know wood can burn, but it takes a decent amount of heat. Paper on the other hand can be started to burn with a spark or match.

Re: Consult with your insurance carrier

John lucas

I just make them and sell them i dont fret over liability the word starving artist is there for a reason who's going to sue us ive seen wooden candlesticks at Hobby Lobby and other stores i did a test once with T lights and never did catch one on fire they charred but went out before the wood realky ignited

Risk mitigation / criminality

Geoff Whaling

When I sought clarification from the Product Safety Commission in Australia the staff were very specific that the information provided was "general guidance and does not constitute legal advice" & that it was "in confidence." The "in confidence" bit does not hold up in court given that it is a public safety matter. Risk management again!

Seeking specific advice from your insurer is probably the easy solution as insurers employ actuaries who calculate risk and understand claims history, hazard, probability etc. Insurers will attempt to mitigate their risk of having to pay a claim by adding riders to your policy. If the insurer wants to mitigate the risk then you should too.

Ignoring a rider or committing a criminal act generally voids insurance cover and places one at financial risk.

Ignoring or contravening legislation may actually venture into the realm of criminal negligence if there are deaths or serious injury resulting from another's use, negligent or not, of a "prohibited product" or an "unsafe product" that you supplied or manufactured.

Establishing "criminality" usually relies upon the establishment that you owed a "duty of care" to the affected party; you omitted to perform that duty; and your actions contributed/caused the event/death etc.

To much risk management is actually management by total avoidance - eliminate any possibility of a claim. Turners may wish to sell candle holders but is the potential for a claim, the risk (emotional & financial) and the probability of a claim compensated sufficiently in the sale price?

Some items / sales are not worth the risk.

It all gets back to what level of risk do you perceive personally and are comfortable to accept.

Candle Assoc.

Geoff Whaling

Look up http://candles.org/fire-safety-candles/

Good starting point & useful material on candle safety. As always they cite the relevant safety standards, which are available for purchase etc.

One sobering statistic "Nearly 10,000 residential fires are caused each year by the careless or inappropriate use of candles."

So there is a real risk to turners supplying candle holders.

Re: Candle Assoc.

John Veerkamp

It's not the candlesticks that catch fire but such things as bedding, curtains, paper too close etc. Reasonable caution is plenty good. Does the CPSP also warn you that the flame is hot and not to put your hair in it?

exactly what I was thinking

john lucas

I thought that was kind of stretching the point. Most fires are caused by carelessness, not the product. I'm sure there are a few. Heck there are a few accidents cause just about everything.

If you were making 500 candlesticks a month and selling them retail, yes I would be concerned about a possibly liability suit no matter how small.

I don't know how many sets of candlesticks Rude Osolnik sold. More than probably all of us put together since he made several sets each morning before going to work. I saw several of his demos and don't ever remember him talking about liability.

Christmas trees...

John K Jordan

>"Nearly 10,000 residential fires are caused each year by...

I read once that today's fire losses can't hold a candle to (sorry) the losses from when people used real candles on Christmas trees.

JKJ

Re: hold a candle

Rum

rofl. no need to be sorry, we all need to stop apologizing for puns!!

I agree

Geoff Whaling

Most of these events are caused by operator error, poor supervision etc but the legal profession still seems to be able to find some negligence by the supplier etc.

It would probably be a good risk mitigation ploy to include a copy of "candle safety" with each sale.

Fear is a powerful motivator, fear of loosing everything you have worked for is always played up by the insurance industry.

Men, Women, and Children......

Barry Irby

Our Home Inspector group had the local Fire Marshal come in for a talk and training for us. He spoke for an hour about fire and the causes and dangers. Talked about smoke detectors and fire suppression systems. At the question and answer period, I asked what REALLY caused residential fires, noting that I thought the electrical system was maligned and blamed for everything of unknown origin possibly by lazy investigators. His Answer....Men, Women, and Children....not necessarily in that order and that if insurance companies did not pay for stupid, they wouldn't pay for anything at all.

Re: hold a candle

Wayne Kuhn

Sell without a candle, then label them "not to be used with wax or oil candles"

Same reason I won't live in California-Everything causes cancer when you live there.

Product safety

John K Jordan

Re: Product safety

Wayne Kuhn

Do not taunt happy ball