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Knowledge You Can Build On — Est. 1998

Personalized Wooden Watches, Engraved Free

buttons..

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buttons..

#1

buttons..

Rum

Using up some scrap and there was an apparent need for some larger buttons for someone elses project ;).

From bottom to top:

- Lilac with india ink

- spalted maple burl

- walnut with brass filings (wire loop connector epoxied in the back)

- some distressingly boring mystery wood (the board looked better with a splash of water)


The problem of course being workholding the little fellows. Hot glue is slow if you're trying to do very many and a pita to clean up on the back (is there a trick for cleanup there I'm missing?). Double sided tape worked better, but had to be replaced for each one which was a bit tedious still and a few were tossed.

I'm thinking a vacuum chuck might be the way to go if you were doing a lot of them, but haven't ever used one of those so not sure how well it would work on something this small?

Re: buttons..

#2

Hot Glue

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In New Jersey

Gets nice and soft for removal with a blow drier set on hot.

Forget the vac; not enough diameter to get atmos weight to hold.

Re: buttons..

#3

Re: buttons..

David Walser

Mark's suggestion to use a hair dryer (or a heat gun) works. However, since some hot melt glues require over 300 degrees Fahrenheit to melt, you might want another solution. Try rubbing alcohol. With a wipe or two with a cotton ball wet with rubbing alcohol, the glue should easily peel off the backs of those buttons.

Re: buttons..

#4

Re: buttons..

Rum

I'll have to try the rubbing alcohol trick, that might well be a winner.

I had tried the hair drier + hot glue but was spending something around 5x the amount of time gluing and ungluing the buttons as I was turning them which wasn't scaling very well. A good chunk of that was in ungluing and cleanup (the hairdrier method leaves a fair bit of glue on the back that needed to be tediously scraped off). Some quicker way to heat up a blob of glue for attachment may also be in the cards.. somehow.

Some quick math indicates you're certainly correct on vacuum being vastly insufficient at this size.

Thanks for the thoughts!

Re: buttons..

#5

Re: buttons..

Barry Irby

You could use thicker stock and then part them off. Might waste a lot of stock.

You could chuck a waste block and glue them on with Cyno and then part them off by cutting the waste block. I made lots of things this way, I just can't remember what they were at the moment.

You could jamb chuck them.

Vacuum will not hold them for any cutting, but might work well for cleaning them and sanding the back.

This CRS episode is driving me nuts.

Re: buttons..

#6

Double sticky ... again

Doc Green

I think, after all is said and done, that double-sided tape is your best bet, and I'm the first to admit that it is not fun to work with. It is less of a bother if you can do more than one button per application of tape. Here are a couple of suggestions.

First, turn a single-ended mandrel (a long tenon) to just under the diameter of the button and then apply the double sticky to the flat face - but let the tape wrap over the edge and back onto the side of the mandrel. Make cuts in the tape so it will wrap over the edge with as few wrinkles as possible.

Stick the button blank onto the tape and then use tailstock support to maintain pressure on the button while you do the roughing cuts. Devise some means for keeping the point of the live center (if you use one) from making a dimple in your button blank. Pull the tailstock back for the finishing cuts.

When you go to pull the button off the mandrel, try to get the button to separate from the tape while leaving the tape on the mandrel. Apply a gentle pressure to one edge of the button and hold it for a few seconds. Chances are you will see the tape begin to release, slowly, which is what you want. Give it some time (a fraction of a minute) to let go.

Do what you can to get the separation to occur between the button and the tape rather than between the tape and the mandrel. You will get better at this after you've done a couple. If you can remove the button while leaving the tape on the mandrel, just stick on another blank and go again.

Lacquer thinner on a paper towel will remove any tape residue from the button.

Don't skip the tailstock part above or you will wind up tossing buttons all over your shop.

Good Luck!

Re: buttons..

#7

Alan Zenreich

Re: Double sticky ... again *LINK*

Alan Zenreich

I agree that double sided tape is likely the best approach.

However, the choice of tape can make a significant different in the joy/trauma of this mounting technique.

I made a video for the AAW Woodturning Fundamentals program that shows how I use tape in my shop.

Perhaps it can give you some things to think about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMH9XYlHeeY


Tips for working with woodturners tape

Re: buttons..

#8

Re: buttons..

George

Rum,

I frequently use hot melt to hold small pieces. I use denatured alcohol to remove it. It curls up and detaches easily. The only problem is alcohol raises the grain. A little steel wool takes it down.

Nice work. Good luck.

George

Re: buttons..

#9

Re: buttons..

Tom Gall

Apply a good quality masking tape (painters tape should be fine) to the back of the button (rub it in for a good bond to the wood) and to your driving surface. Hot-melt glue as necessary (between tape surfaces). It is best to have some overhang on the tape for easier gripping (removal) if it isn't in the way of your turning sequence.

Remove your button and peel off the tape (with glue) and you have a clean surface. I have used this method for another application very successfully.

Re: buttons..

#10

Brad Vietje

Do They Need to be Side Grain?

Brad Vietje

Only way I've made buttons was to turn a dowel to the desired diameter (sometimes well over 2"), then shape the end and part off so the back surface could be sanded flat, or jam-chucked for additional shaping. Since they are all the same diameter, a jam chuck works well for this. a home-built collet chuck might work here, too.

The other style I made had no holes in the face, but a short spigot or tenon on the back that was then cross-drilled -- which sometimes caused splitting problems. I don't have a drill press, but if I did (or if I set up my ShopSmith to be one) I'd try drilling all the holes through the full diameter, then parting off the buttons and probably have cleaner holes across the tenon in this style.

Not sure any of this would work for cross-grain buttons; just wanted to give an alternate route in case you hadn't tried that.

Safe spinning,

Brad Vietje

Newbury, VT

Re: buttons..

#11

Re: buttons.. stickum and orientation update

Rum

Just wanted to update and say that I haven't been ignoring your great advice, quite the contrary but wanted to pop back in just to update and thank you all again for the great ideas and advice.

I haven't tried Tom's interesting suggestion of tape on glue yet.. that certainly bears more investigating - also while reading up around that idea I found David Reed Smiths interesting article on using that idea for bowl reversing: http://www.davidreedsmith.com/Articles/BlueBowlReversing/blue_bowl_reversing.htm

The hot melt still seems slow when gluing one or two buttons at a time. So far I've thought of two possible ways to speed that up, first would be to keep a puddle of melted glue on a little hot plate for quick use. The other is to pre-turn a bunch of glue blocks/mandrels and batch the process (possibly combining the hot melt+tape method), which may in the end be the best choice. More experimentation in progress.

I do have a couple of possible alternative tape choices on order, the local selection was poor and spongy. Watching Tom's excellent video it was apparent the stuff I'm using and others I can find local is definitely not as robust.

I'm somewhat happy to report that I got up to about 5 per hour with 100% success using the tape method, still not very efficient but its not quite as bad as it was before either and the percent of time spent turning is definitely higher. This was with using the same tape I'd been using but with a few changes.

First I gave up on reusing this tape, better tape with more stickum is most likely a different ball of wax. The failure rate with reusing this tape approached 1 so it seemed better to cut my losses and just put fresh on each time.

Second I moved to putting the tape onto the button first. This is contrary to Doc's suggestion, but observing my failure modes it was always the button coming off of the tape, not the tape popping off of the mandrel so it seemed that getting the best/cleanest contact at the highest failure point would be the the "best". If I could re-use the tape that would certainly be different, so will revisit this later with the other tape choices.

Finally I sped up by slowing down. The tape seems to really like a bit of contact time to set up so I'd put it the next button on the lathe and go tell the dogs that wood chips aren't potato chips again and scratch their butts or put some BLO on the finished buttons or whatever for a minute or three and that seemed to help set it.

As to Brad's excellent point about grain orientation. I have made quite a number of end grain buttons (mostly of the rustic round cut off of a branch variety, fewer turned ones) and yes they are substantially faster and work/look fantastic for a lot of uses. There are a couple of reasons I decided to go cross grain here. I was a wee bit dubious about the strength of end grain ones of any size and the initial target for these is a "high wear" environment (decorations on a hoddie for my cousins 5yr old daughter). I see you've made end grain ones over 2" so I was apparently being overly cautious. It might not be obvious in the picture but I put the holes carefully at a diagonal to the grain to maximize strength as well. I've also been in a "use up the scraps and smalls" mode and happened to have some pieces of roughly the right size (notably the lilac which is really tough wood) so that was also a consideration.

There is also more than a bit of having tried it wanting to make it work :D

Re: buttons..

#12

Tape with glue

John K Jordan

I missed this until Rum pointed it out. This sounds like a good idea, one I want to try. This, BTW, is my favorite of masking tape, seems to stick better than others. It certainly is easier to see.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000LNYE4E

JKJ