Powermatic Lathes made in Taiwan

Re: Powermatic Lathes made in Taiwan

Bill Howatt

My thoughts on off-shore manufactured items, regardless of what they are, or where they are made, is summed up your words:

He also said that the quality of the product is directly affected by the amount of quality control and oversight demanded by the various companies and that Powermatic stays in contact. He and his fellow engineers visit there often. .

There is no reason that the Chinese who put rockets into space and elsewhere can't make relatively simple equipment.

Bill

Re: Powermatic Lathes made in Taiwan

Brad Vietje

John,

Any info on the history of this issue -- which PM lathes were manufactured where? Mine is a 3520B, so the second generation, purchased it about 10 years ago. Any way to tell where a given model was made from the tear or serial # ?

Safe spinning,

Brad Vietje

Newbury, VT

Re: Powermatic Lathes made in Taiwan

john lucas

Brad I don't think there is a way for sure. I know after they moved the production from McMinnville TN. (about 30 miles from me) it went to Taiwan and as far as I know has been there ever since. My 3520A is about 12 or 13 years old and came from Taiwan. They still ship most stuff out of Lavergne Tn about 80 miles from me. That's where the Engineers that I taught were based out of.

Quality control is key

Ellis Walentine

I visited almost 30 manufacturing companies in Taiwan back in '97. At that time, all the major brands were being manufactured there, often in the same factories. Grizzly was the exception, with its own proprietary factories. As of today, much of the basic manufacturing has moved on to mainland China, and I can't tell you for sure where these lathes are made nowadays. What I can say is that Made in Taiwan isn't a guarantee of quality. The Taiwanese are fully capable of making very sophisticated machinery, but the companies that get the best stuff are the ones with high-level engineering staffs on the ground there, with a constant QC testing regime. None of this machinery is made soup-to-nuts in one factory; it's all assembled from components and parts that are sourced from perhaps dozens of manufacturers and suppliers. Companies that aren't watching the suppliers carefully may find that the specs have changed from what the blueprint specifies. Not pointing any fingers here, just saying that, historically, this has been the story of Chinese and Taiwanese manufacturing.

The good news is that the Chinese are getting better at all phases of production, and any reputable brand like Powermatic or Grizzly is capable of delivering a quality product.

Ellis

Re: Quality control is key

Roger Chandler

I could not agree more, Ellis.......quality control is key, and can make a substantial difference. If I recall correctly most of my comments regarding the Grizzly 0766 lathe was that it is manufactured by the same manufacturer who also does Jet, Powermatic Laguna, Baleigh, Hare & Forbes, [Aus] Busy Bee and perhaps others [The Burt Group] but not necessarily the same factory building

They do pull from some identical parts.....for example, the quill on the 3520b and the 0766 are identical. While both may use some of the same parts, it is obvious the QC on the Powermatics are better than on the Grizzly lathe. I certainly think Grizzly could and should step QC controls up a notch or two on this newest lathe!

All that being said, they got the basic frame for this large lathe correct, and put a 3 hp motor and Delta Electronics M-series inverter, and have an offering here in the big lathe class that is a great value, overall. They cut corners with a banjo off their 18" lathe, but with a bit of aftermarket accessories, this lathe can hold its own with most anything that comes from Asian manufacturers.

The loose parts in shipping and such should be addressed, and if Grizzly stepped up on this matter, they would have a solid home run with this 0766 lathe.

So far, my unit shows a high level of performance, and I am very pleased.

I know of 3 guys who sent them back, one had a bad motor, one did not like the high frequency whine on the motor/inverter, which does mostly disappear with use, as the smart circuitry in the inverter adapts to actual feedback during operation [at least that is the case with my unit.] The other was disappointed with the small banjo for the most part.

QC controls and inspections do matter and can prevent issues like mentioned above.......I suppose they do add to the cost the customer pays, as well.

Re: Quality control is key

Mike Stafford

Indeed quality control is the key.

However more important are the specifications to which the lathe was manufactured. It is more than obvious that this lathe was poorly conceived from the beginning. How could any company purporting to be a tool manufacturer make the mistakes (tool rest height, banjo length) in design that affect the lathe's performance and capabilities? Who designed this lathe? It would lead one to believe that the designer really did not understand how a lathe functions.

If they are manufactured in an ISO certified plant as has been said in other threads then the plant did a good job of manufacturing a poorly designed lathe to the specifications they were given. Their quality control may have been impeccable. It all depends on what was in the contract. If the buyer did not agree to or specify certain quality checks they would not have received them. Labor and overhead cost money and if the contract did not specify certain quality checks the contract is in no way obligated to provide them at no cost.

Contracts are fulfilled to specifications and if the specifications are for a crappy product the buyer will get a crappy product. It is too soon to know if this machine will be the great machine some people describe it as being. I will be surprised if the company selling this machine does anything to improve the defects that have been seen. And if they do the great price is going out the window.

And just how does anyone know that some of the parts are the same? How many variations of the inverter are available and at what differing costs? Trust me there is a lot of difference between the specifications of various models. Reliability engineers spend their entire careers working to produce equipment that will fulfill the specifications of a contract and not much more because the goal is to save money in manufacturing. I am reminded of the refrigerator that had a 5 year warranty on the compressor which went out at 5 years and 1 day. That reliability engineer earned his pay. Fortunately the retailer decided to honor the warranty because the refrigerator did not go into service until the day after the sale. That reliability engineer really earned his money.

So how much money does one have to spend on after market accessories and machine shop work to get this lathe to perform properly?

I would not recommend this machine to anyone until more time in actual use is logged.

Re: Quality control is key

Dale Miner

If memory serves correct, the banjo on the 18" Grizzly lathe was the same banjo that is used on the 16" Powermatic. My experience with the banjo on the 16" Powermatic found that banjo to be about 2" to short.

If it is the same banjo and is supplied on a 20" or larger machine, it is not a quality control issue, it is a failed engineering design issue. Or, perhaps engineering was trumped by price point.

space

hu lowery

Bill,

I don't think you made much of an argument when you said they put people in space. Ever see the POS we sent people to the moon in? YIKES!!

(on the launching pad)

Neil: "Buzz, do you realize we are sitting on over 50,000 individual components?"

Buzz: "Well yes, we all know that."

Neil: "each one supplied by the lowest bidder"

Buzz: "Mommeeeeeee!!"

Whooosh!

Hu

You're right, Mike

Ellis Walentine

Quality control doesn't guarantee that the machine is well engineered or that the best parts and components are specified, only that those components are within specification. Most consumers aren't in any position to know or understand the engineering parameters of the equipment they're buying. That's why it is so hard to judge a book by its cover. User reviews are probably the best feedback. Magazine reviews and comparison tests are based on new equipment and can't dig deeply enough into the weeds of design and quality control except for things that are immediately obvious.

Caveat emptor. Quality and price often correlate pretty well.

Ellis

There's ISO accreditation & QC

Geoff Whaling

Both ISO accreditation and Quality Control processes only ensure a product is manufactured to specification.

The specification of the product, support, after sales service, spare parts availability and the longevity of the tool / machine is the important part to us - the end user.

When I see generic tools / machines being offered by multiple vendors I get very cautious for a number of reasons - specification being the important issue.

Most of these machines are sold purely on their price point so for one vendor to gain a competitive edge in the marketplace they either sacrifice the quality specification of components or reduce their "in-house" cost to get an item to market. That means either a part that will wear out faster, a motor with a reduced duty cycle or even packaging that may last long enough to reach the customer intact. Either way the tool / machine is sold on price!

In the long run the customer pays either through a tool/machine that fails faster than it should; lack of availability of parts or parts that cannot be identified; or reduced performance.

Definitely Caveat Emptor & also Caveat Lector (beware of what you read!).