grain filling

Re: grain filling

Carole in VA

>Try it on scrap. I filled the grain on a pen one time with contrasting walnut grain filler. FWIW, it looked awful! LOL

Re: grain filling

Jim King

>Keep sanding. 30 minetes of sanding will solve your froblem and make most anything nice. Seems as forever but it is not that long. Just dont burn your fingers, the sandpaper gets hot if you do a good job..

Re: grain filling

Les Robison

>Gary if you want to fill the grain for an "artistic" effect you should sand first, then seal the wood with a finish like shellac. I would not use an oil finish at this stage. After sealing the wood, you can add what ever material you want to enhance the grain. I have used dyed plaster of paris, contrasting wood sawdust, etc. Once you have the material in the open grain, let it dry, then seal it again (shellac). Then sand it smooth and proceed to apply your finish of choice.

If you simply want to fill the open grain with the oak, you can create the slurry by sanding and till the pours that way. Again apply the finish of choice and sand smooth, finish again, etc. If you are looking for a glossy finish, use a polishing compound and be careful not to go through the finish.

Hope this helps.

Re: grain filling

Raymond Overman in SC

>Gary,

In a piece that was somewhat bland, I used a propane torch over the surface to accent the grain patterns after sanding with 220 grit sandpaper. After that I continued my sanding regimine with 320-600 which left a considerable amount of the charred looking wood in the grain. I finished it with several coats of gloss laquer and finally buffed it after a week or so of drying time. It made for an interesting effect.

Re: grain filling

GaryG in MD

>Raymond, Thanks for the interesting idea. I'll practice on some scrap and see if I can do it. Thanks. ...Gary

Re: grain filling

GaryG in MD

>Les, Thanks for the feedback. Just what I needed. I'll be interested to see what happens. ...Gary

Re: grain filling

GaryG in MD

>Carole, I know what you mean -- it's a risk. I'd hate to make a decent bowl ugly, but there's only one way to learn (unless another reader can post a photo of an oak bowl they did with contrasting grain). Hint, hint. ...Gary

Re: grain filling

GaryG in MD

>Thanks Jim. I'm glad to hear what it takes -- so I don't give up half way through. I guess it's one of those things you have to try once. ...Gary

Re: grain filling

Fog Tanner

>I do a lot of dying, mainly on ash. When I am going to use a wax to highlight the grain, I put a light coat of sanding sealer (shellac based), but not enough to fill the grain. After it dries, a quick pass with 0000 steel wool. I then rub the piece down with the wax (either liming or patinating). I go with the grain, across the grain and leave a film over the entire piece.

After that dries, I take a pad of paper towel (Viva), turn the lathe on, and put some Liberon Finsihing oil on the pad. Start in the center and wipe out towards the rim. Stop part way and change the pad as it will pick up a lot of excess wax, more finishing oil and continue.

The patinating wax, (black), will give an aging affect to the piece, while the liming (white) will give a brighter appearence.

If you don't like it, you can shear scrape the finish off, resand it and try something else. I have done this on some bowls I did during some demos. They were dyed, and I took them back to bare wood and refinished them.

Re: grain filling

Tom in Red Deer

>Hi Gary G,

I had the same question with a piece of Choclate Ash. Same sort of grain structure. The problem is the hard and soft grain combination.

I gave the bowl the full Tung oil treatment and then took a piece of 3m fine mesh soaked in Tung oil and buffed for about twenty minutes. It took away some of the soft wood and really polished the hard grain.

The result was a slightly textured feel that I like a lot. When you look into the bowl it looks like a very fine topographical map.

For final finish I used dark brown wax first to highlight the valleys and then I used a clear wax over that.

The final result is a bowl that looks and feels very old even though it was made two months ago.

Tom in Red Deer

Re: grain filling

John Lucas

>Gary

I sand and seal the wood first with a thin layer of finish. I usually use diluted shellac or diluted lacquer, thinned with the proper thinner. Then I use different waxes to fill the pores.

You get an entirely different effect if you just rub wax on without sealing. I like this very much for some things. Burgundy shoe polish looks good on Oak. Seal it with shellac and then use whatever finish you like over it.

Another finish I like on oak is to use analine dye to color the wood, seal it, and then use contrasting wax to fill the grain.

Clay Foster dyes the wood black with india ink and then used gold wax. That's really nice.

Sanding to fill the pores is hard on Oak. The pores are so large it's hard to get enough sanding dust to fill them. I sand with wet or dry paper and use boiled linsead oil to lubricate while sanding. This works good on wood that has small pores but I haven't found it very effective on Oak.

I have filled the pores with almost anything that will thicken. Powdered wood putty is my favorite mostly because I always have some and since it's water based I can mix analine dye with it and make it any color I want. It doesn't spread as well as some because it dries too quick but if you do a small area at a time it's quite easy to use.

On woods that are less porous I just use multiple layers of lacquer. I don't thin it as much and spray on several really thick layers. Then I sand until I've flattened the entire surface and then spray on final coats with the normal viscosity. I do this because I can spray a quick coat on and go back to another project. I do this every time I take a break and by lunch I have enough coats on to fill the pores. This is faster for me than taking the time fill the pores. If I'm doing a table top or some such thing or doing multiple pieces I will take the time to fill them first.

Re: grain filling

TomW in SouthJersey

>This was a timely question and answers for me. I have a piece of sassafras roughed to a good sized bowl and am trying to identify the best way to rub some gold leaf into the deeper parts of the grain.

My plan was to sand to 220 or maybe 320 or 400 would be better, lightly shellac and apply the gold leaf. Allow it to dry and and polish while spinning medium speed with either 0000 steel wool of 3M mesh. If the gold leaf does sink into the wood and I like the look I plan to finish with tung oil to darken the sassafras a little.

I'll decide to either finish it or turn it off depending how it works out.

If anyone has a better approach I'd like to hear it.

Tom Wright

Re: grain filling

DWFII

>John,

Is it possible or even advisable...to use shellac or a shellac based sanding sealer under something like Minwax wipe on poly? From what you say it probably is but I need it spelled out. And what's the difference between shellac based sanding sealer and shellac itself. I was looking at some Bulls Eye sanding sealer and was about to buy it but the "clerk " at the paint store told me I didn't need it with the Minwax. ??!

Also I have a water based, poly sanding sealer I used to use on pens. Is there an upside or a downside compared to the shellac?

Sorry for so many questions...why is the sky blue? :D

DW

In the High Desert of Central Oregon

Re: grain filling

John Lucas

>Tom

I use a lot of sassafrass on my hand mirrors because it looks a lot like ash but is very lightweight making the mirror balance better. Gold leaf might be interesting but it might not fill all the grain. You might apply it, sand away the top layer and then try a second coat so to see if you can fill more of the grain. In my experience gold leaf will get into the pores somewhat but doesn't fill them so when you apply a finish it still looks like you have unfilled pores, they are just gold instead of wood color.

Gold waxes are easier to fill pores because you really force it into the holes. I like a product called Rub-n-buff that I get at the hobby store but I've use a bunch of different brands and they all work pretty well. If you want the pores filled flush with surface you may have to apply a second coat. If I use a thick coat so fill deep pores or holes I let it dry for a day or so before sanding. Some waxes dry quick and some dry slow so I give it plenty of time.

Re: grain filling

TomW in SouthJersey

>John - Thanks. The look I'm going for is to have just a hint of gold specs in the deeper parts of the grain. Do you think what I'm proposing will wrok for that? Or is RubNBuff a better way to go.

Tom

Re: grain filling

Ed Kelle

>From what I have read in finishing books, regular store bought shellac in the can has a wax additive in it which will not work well with other coatings on top such as the wipe on Poly. They say to use dewaxed shellac and then you can follow this with poly on top. Zinsser seal coat is this dewaxed shellac. I'm not sure how this is different from their sanding sealer and it is sometimes tricky to find as well.

this whole finishing science seems to confuse me more often than not.

Re: grain filling

Ron in Drums PA

>The wax in shellac is a natural by product that is removed in dewaxed shellac. Dewaxed Shellac is what is used as a sanding sealer since it can be covered by most finishes.

Re: grain filling

Carole in VA

>If I still had the contrasting grain-filled pen or a pic of it, I would send it to you, but unfortunately I don't. I may have a pic in backups...I will look later today. It may look better in a bowl, but on something as small as a pen, I didn't like it at all. I was using white oak, not red.

Re: grain filling

DWFII

>Ed,

I agree...finishing is the most difficult, time-consuming, and mysterious part of wood turning. I want a wipe-it-on, presto-chango perfect finish that takes all of ten minutes to apply. :D

DW

In the High Desert of Central Oregon

Re: grain filling

RussFairfield

>The only reason for using a filler, whether you make your own or buy a commercial product, is that filling the grain of Red Oak with the slurry from the finish and sandpaper can be very time consuming. If it can be done at all, it will take a lot of sanding.

There are a lot of other ways to fill the grain. I would suggest using latex paint if you are wanting to fill the grain of Red Oak and accent it at the same time. Sand it back after it is dry and coat it with any finish you want.

The advantages of the latex paint is that it is easily sanded and the colors that are available.

You could also try filling the grain with glue, wood dust, and dye. This can be harder than the paint, but it will be more difficult to sand.

The Behlen's oil based filler is a good commercial product for filling Oak. The fillers are durable and flexible enough to move with the wood in thick applications.

Famowood or WoodPatch fillers can do a nice job of filling an open grained wood. They are also a good crack filler. They sand easily, and take any finish you want to put over them.

The oldtimers filled the Oak with asphaltum and finished it with shellac or a varnish. That may still be the best way to do it if you want a smooth surface and accented grain with some degree of durability.

The only problem with using a Nitro-Cellulose lacquer such as Deft to fill Red Oak is that it can get quite thick in the open grain. That thickness will accent the yellowing, shrinking, and brittleness that comes with age and exposure to sunlight.

A CAB-Acrylic lacquer, or one of the instrument-grade lacquers, would be the better choice for clear finish; but it will be more difficult to locate the product and use in a brushing application.

Thank you all!

GaryG in MD

>Thank you all, for your detailed and helpful responses. This turned into a very good discussion. I have learned a lot here, and it has certainly given me some new ideas and approaches to try. I'm going to forego the 'endless sanding' method and try some of the fun stuff! Regards to all, Gary

Re: grain filling

ken chase

>Is it possible to sand through the grain completely?

The inside of a cup I made appears near the rim to have lost the grain pattern that ran throughout the piece.

Re: grain filling

GaryG in MD

>Ken, The appearance of the grain pattern depends on the wood, the orientation of the form in the tree, the shape of the piece, and the particular area on the finished piece that you're looking at, but the simple answer is "no", the grain is always going to be there in one form or another. You have the choice of disguising it or accentuating it, hence my original question. ...Gary

Re: grain filling

John Lucas

>Gold leaf will definitely give you a hint of specs. If you put the size on thin the gold leaf will go down in further. If you have a thick size then this will fill in some of the pores and the gold leaf won't go as deep. When I have a very delicate textured surface I use the spray sizing because it puts down a thinner coat of glue.