cheap bowls

Re: cheap bowls

Glenn Hodges

>John, he probably couldn't elaborate because he might have been a buy and sell person. I started selling at a show when I first started turning, and my prices were low. As I got better and spent longer hours on my pieces I had to charge more, I sold less at this show. I dropped the show, and moved to a higher end show.

Nashville, GA

Good question....

Terry Daniel

>John, each club should have 2 purposes:

1) Improve the skills of its members so junk doesn't go to market. Junk hurts us all. When a person buys a "handmade" piece they expect quality. If they do not get quality they may never buy another wooden bowl from anyone.

2) develope a market. A club should stir up interest in turned wood items. Nothing stirs up interest like quality work; nothing ruins a market like poor quality work.

Re: cheap bowls

Mike Schwing from Md.

>I believe there is a place for what others refer to as junk. Decorators might even refer to it as "primitive" and fetch big sums for such type work.

I honestly don't believe it hurts us in the least.

To fully appreciate the prices that "junk" can fetch, all you need do is visit a local Williams Sonoma. I happened to be in one of their stores yesterday and of course examined their wooden bowl section. A large-ish beech bowl was for sale - $160. It was probably 15" wide in one direction and 14" in another. The rim surface was warped like a roller coaster, and the bottom had been finished by simply turning it upside down and sanding a flat spot, as evident by the oval surface area. Maybe it was sanded to 150 grit and coated with oil. Undoubtedly it was turned when only half dry. No care was taken in its finish.

Someone will buy that bowl and think it is just wonderful. "Look at how it warped, isn't that remarkable?" They will serve a huge salad in it, prominently displayed on their serving table at a fancy party. Everyone will love it, except the elitist woodturner who happened to be invited. He will sneer at it, be upset by it, and it will ruin his night, while everyone else has fun.

The rest of the bowls at that stores, smaller, 8" beech bowls - done exactly the same way, same flaws, same warps. $60.

So my salad bowls sell for $100-200 these days. They're not really on the same level as the store bowl I just described, but the only people who will notice are those who have examined many wooden bowls. There just aren't many folks like that out there. Because of that I have a small buying audience, but I'd rather sell something I'm proud of at a high price/low volume than the other way around. Why do I spend so much time sanding and finishing and buffing and even carving designs on what are nothing more than salad bowls? Is it to help "the sport of turning"? Is it to help raise prices and quality for everyone? (no, and no). It is because I like making pretty things that I can be proud to have examined by a trained eye. The "junk" seller has a different motivation and a different clientele.

But if I could figure out how to supply Williams Sonoma with bowls that took me 30 minutes to make at prices like that, you bet your butt I'd be doing it, and not caring in the least about what you or any other turner thought about it. The buyers wouldn't care either. How does that hurt anybody?

John, maybe your friend should make some $38 bowls and see how they sell alongside the others.

Some rambling thoughts

Ron in Drums PA

>You are going to have that no matter where you go. Walmart sells wooden bowls for $38 also (so I found out yesterday - I dislike that store!). The unknown wood had a really beautiful figure. The finish, if any, was very natural, almost like a butcher block finish. It was sanded perfectly. I almost bought a matching cutting board to cut up into pen blanks. If the store had a different name I would have.

The difference in selling higher priced items is in the personal contact you have when you are selling eye to eye. When you can tell the buyer how the bowl was made, how it was finished and so on, can make a big difference. People buy from people they like.

To some folks price does matter, no matter what the quantity or how much they like you. These folks will not change their minds and you are better off letting them buy from a cheap source.

Re: cheap bowls

GaryNelson

>I have had similar problems with turners either underselling me or with inferior workmanship.You have to weather the storm and hope he does not come back.It does devalue your workmanship and especially price.Even though it takes longer to do it better--there is a stigma on charging too much for your own work then--if he is selling much below.

That is why--I only went to "juried" shows,Art shows and not craft shows.One of a kind type shows.

Gary

Let's stir up the pot!

steve antonucci

>I know that as a 'pretty good turner' (compared to how bad I was last year!- repeat yearly), I look at some of the primitive/crude/lousy bowls for sales in stores/eBay/shows and think 'Wow, if he can get $X for that, I should get $Y for mine!' Only problem is, only the buyer decides what something is worth. I rarely look at other people's work (value relative to mine) anymore, since I don't sell my work (given away to friends).

Controversy: If you are jealous that one guy is outselling you in a competitive market because you think your a better turner, you are wrong. He is the "better" turner because he is making a product that meets the demand of the market that you are competing. At the end of the day, if you want to win awards for skill (i.e. more sales), enter a contest. If you want to sell, make something that someone wants to buy at the price they want to pay.

Now, without naming any names, I have seen the exact thing Mike/John, et. al. have pointed out at a few places. Ebay has several notoriously "bad turners" that sell everything they list.

I scratched my head and tried to figure out why one Ebayer can sell every item he lists, when his basic form is "roughed to round", he makes 5/8" thick walls on a 6" bowl, and his finishing appears to be one coat of poly. I read all of his feedback, and across the board, his customers love his work. Then it occured to me. How many "Dogs Playing Poker" have sold? -> There's a buyer for everything, and as a maker, it is your job to find and market your work to that buyer.

Final thought. I was at DisneyWorld last year and they had a "Bowl Mill" company exhibiting how they mass produce salad sets. Like Mike Schwing pointed out, wet turned, out of round, etc. They had a Kelton-like machine that cut the bowls out of 1/2 logs (not even one gouge was used for shaping). The bowls were dried in a kiln, and then sanded across a big belt on the outside, air-sanded inside. I forget how long each took to make, but they were $100+ for the bigger ones. And largerly either unfinished or mineral oil/beeswax (can't recall)

Could they hold a salad? You bet. Would I sell my twice turned, hand-sanded, hand-rubbed finish for the same price? You bet.

But if I could produce a similar item for less work and make higher profit margins, why the heck wouldn't I if that's what I was trying to do?

It's the American Way.

Steve

Re: cheap bowls

Barry Irby

>It's not just turning, I have the same thing in my work. I Do home inspections for a living and have tried hard to make it a profession. My fee is $250 to $500 depending on the size of the house, but there is always somebody trying to do them of $99. They last a few weeks or months and move on, but another one jumps into the position. They hurt the industry for the rest of us, but what can you do? I stress skill and experience and keep on going.

Re: cheap bowls

Barry Turner

>I saw those bowls.....did you notice that many of them were oval-shaped? I doubt these were turned......not unless this guy has one of those special chucks like they use for turning oval picture frames. I thought the quality was okay. I just don't know how the guy got in the show. Everything looked too machine-made. How'd he do that?

Re: cheap bowls

John K Jordan

>I agree that each person has the right to try to sell what ever he wants to sell, no matter how good or how poor it is or whose feelings or whose business may be hurt. That's the way life is, and sometimes it doesn't seem fair.

You should have heard the pro photographers whine and complain when digital cameras became popular and "everybody was doing it".

If we make a living at woodturning (or anything else), we must find the market and meet it or go under. If that means cranking out cheap bowls and dropping the craftsmanship and art, so be it. To be true to the art may have more to do with the soul than the checkbook. History shows that art and poverty are close companions.

I have a close friend who dropped his full-time and pottery "craft" business of cranking out mugs, butter dishes, and dinnerware and now specializes in huge and beautiful raku-fired vessels. Happier? I think so. But he had to get a day job!

JKJ in East TN

Re: Good question....

John Lucas

>Terry

As far as I know this guy doesn't belong to any club. Our club demonstrates at this symposium and there are probably 5 other turners producing great pieces. This guy was there last year as well so he must be doing well enough to either get invited back or passes the jury.

Re: cheap bowls

John Lucas

>Barry

I'm pretty sure he uses a homemade version to a coring tool of some kind or another and turns them green. That's just my opinion after looking at the work and talking to him.

Re: cheap bowls

John Lucas

>Barry

You hit it on the head. I told my friend that he needed to talk to the customers and show them how finely his work is crafted and especially to mention that there isn't any torn grain showing in his spalted maple bowls. This educates the customers so when they look at the other guys bowls they will know what torn grain and bad finishing looks like.

You can't sit in the back of the booth and just watch people look at your pieces. You have to actively engage them and sell yourself as an artist. Especially if you want to sell the higher priced work. They are buying the artist in this case as much as the work.

Re: cheap bowls

John Lucas

>John, I am one of the pro photographers who was hurt by the digital trend. Our product that we produced has changed so I still have a job but all over campus we see brochures produced by each department just because they have a digital camera. The brochured don't compare to the ones we produce but they obviously server a purpose. If I wasn't shooting so much artwork I would be out of job because we are almost never out on campus anymore.

This is similar to the problem of selling bowls at a craft show when someone else undercuts you. They either don't need the same profit margin or don't produce the same quality. Either way doesn't matter you still have to either change what you do or educate the public or find another venue that does understand the quality.

One more thing....

Terry Daniel

>As I read the posts I saw two thoughts:

1) Warped bowls being sold cheap.....I have no problem with this. The buyer saw warped bowls and bought them....no surprises

2) a buyer buys bowls that warp after the purchase...this one I have problems with. The buyer in this case didn't get what he/she paid for and that hurts not only the person who sold them the bowl, it hurts all turners because that buyer may be afraid to purchase wood art again.

The bottom line to this thread as I see it is: the customer should get no surprises. If you are selling cheap, green turned bowls you should tell the customers that they are likely to warp. I have had someone come into my shop and buy a bowl that had warped badly. It was to go in a rustic cabin and it looked old which is what he wanted. Again, no surprises....he got what he wanted. The question is not cheap or expensive....it is honesty and deception. Whatever you make be honest with your customers and give a guarantee if it does not meet their expectations. When you take care of a problem without giving them an argument you have gained their confidence and you have a loyal customer.

Re: cheap bowls

Mike Schwing from Md.

>I can't help but notice how similar this is to a situation we see in every city in every state in the union. One corner will be occupied by a high dollar/low volume automobile dealership, and the one across the street, or a couple of blocks down the road will house a low dollar/high volume dealership. Those two businesses sell the same thing - automobiles. They are not competition with each other. The $10K car buyer and the $50K buyer do not look at the same brand, they know where to spend their money. The owner of the high dollar store is even actually grateful for the dollar store dealership down the way - it "pre qualifies" his buyers. If there were only one store, all potential buyers would wander in, this way only the ones who want his type of car show up. No wasted "ups". The low dollar car does not "cheapen" the market nor does it decrease the status of the high end autos - in fact, just the opposite, it cements their place in society/the marketplace.

Now what of those mega dealerships where they sell all ranges, models, and brands? Same thing - thats your craft show - under one tent, high dollar, low dollar and everything in between. The tent owner gets a piece of the action, and the vendor keeps most of what he brings in. It is a workable arrangement for all involved. Buyers buy, sellers sell, everyone finds what they are looking for.

I guess that in a nutshell, I think worrying about this is a waste of time.

Re: cheap bowls

ThomD

>I wouldn't blame the guy, I would blame the craft show. If the people who come there need a massive amount of education to tell the difference between two completely different levels of product, then possibily you aren't in the right market.

On the other hand, possibly the best known turner in my area, who does make a living at it, and even got a chapter in a recent Fine Woodworking book, makes horid bowls, if you ask me. The fact is they sell. I'm sure he could make them any level of "quality" that was required. He has been turning full time for decades. He just realized (i'm gessing) that what matered to him "us" about turning, really didn't mater to his clients. What they basically want is 1) a bowl, 2)a piece of wood. 3) small, medium, large. 4) Know the person they bought the bowl from, not specifically, but int his case they had decided on someone other than a sweat shop product. That's it.

Size appart, the first bowl I turned was better than anything this guy sells. Yet he sells his work, and I stopped turning cause as nice as my stuff is, I ran out of places to put it.

Re: cheap bowls

John K Jordan

>>all over campus we see brochures produced by

>each department just because they have a digital camera.

Same thing happened when word processors and page layout programs (i.e., PageMaker) came to the desktop. Suddenly everyone could produce their own letters and documents and brochures instead of having to go through the editing staff - quality went WAY down all over the country. Managers were writing letters themselves instead of dictating to the secretary. What they didn't realize was the secretary had been correcting grammar and sentence structure and making the manager look good. And just take a look at how bad some of today's web page and software design is when done by people with great "computer" skills but no graphic or interface design skills.

Where I work, the photography department went from a large staff to one photographer after people started taking their own photos. Man does most of it stink! One one hand, quality doesn't matter for many photos. But the sad thing is, just like the poor bowls, many of the people in the world simply can't tell the difference between a "good" photo and a lousy one. (One well-meaning soul, bless his heart, took a comprehensive series of hundreds of unique and dynamic photos from an unique vantage point to document a multi-billion dollar project here - EVERY SINGLE ONE was out of focus and worse, way over-processed with a digital sharpening filter to try to compensate for the focus. He was so proud of himself. I nearly broke down and cried.)

Same thing with the video work here. With cheap digital video cameras, we have many people taking their own video and even editing it to make small productions. Most of these are very painful to watch, looking like Aunt Bessie shot it while holding the baby. The "videographers" just simply do not have the training or knowledge - don't even know what a jump cut is, are not aware of the background when shooting, ignore the lighting, and get horrible sound!

I think you hit it on the head when you mentioned educating the public. I have to spend a portion of my time educating staff, managers, and clients who come to me for video or graphics. I have to convince them to pay more for me to hire the pros to shoot or edit video, explain why we should do the photography instead of work with their snapshots or why I should send their poster to a graphic artist instead of having their secretary put it together. It's a constant battle.

But there is one other aspect we don't always consider as we ourselves become better at our craft (or any craft) - ignorance IS sometimes bliss. For example, I understand those with perfect pitch find it painful to listen to a lot of music. Those who can recognize excellence in photos and video are doomed to suffer much. Those who cannot even SEE the grain tearout, sanding marks, inelegant design, and blotched finish will be happier and more contented with a much wide range of quality.

And like many specialty fields, at some level we may be turning primarily for the very narrow audience of other expert wood turners. The problem for those who want to make money turning: that audience doesn't buy many bowls!

JKJ in East TN

Re: cheap bowls

Glenn Madsen in the SF Bay area

>Two of our sons are trained in broadcast. Watching TV with them is a real experience.

Re: cheap bowls

Anthony

>Every now and then one of those turners gets into a show I'm doing and I still out sell him. I was that guy once! There are a lot of "juries" out there that don't know turning yet and we have to educate them.

Re: cheap bowls

Edward

>We have this same situation out here; a 'turner' selling plain, polyurethaned bowls with bottoms sanded flat on a belt sander for $10 to about $65. The guy has quite a production line going.

But, what can you expect from an unregulated industry/business/craft where the price of entry for the 'self taught' is the price of a lathe and some assorted tools.

What else is one going to do in their retirement?

It's a free country and will only become a lot more populated with more woodturners.

Keep the lathes turning

Ed

Re: cheap bowls

John K Jordan

>>show them how finely his work is crafted and

>especially to mention that there isn't any torn

>grain showing in his spalted maple bowls

Might be helpful to have some bad examples right there in his booth, either under the table or better, a display right out front - make a bad bowl with torn grain, uneven walls, etc, and cut it in half (or cut out 1/3 or 1/4), then display it next to a great piece also cut with a little sign: "Feel the difference!"

JKJ in East TN

Re: cheap bowls

Earl Eyre

>It's already been said, but just to underline it: there are always those that shop price, quality be darned. Others will shop quality, price be darned. Many will shop decent quality at a decent price. Decide which you want to sell and don't worry about the others. Just make sure your venue fits your product.

Earl

Re: cheap bowls

Barry Turner

>What about the oval ones? I saw a set of 5 to 7 nested bowls.......all oval in shape. How?

Re: cheap bowls

John Lucas

>John

I would have to borrow bad examples from someone else as I have never made any. (: