Why do we do this? (LONG)

Re: Why do we do this? (LONG)

Don Orr

>This is a very interesting question indeed. Some, like myself have been the fortunate recipient of many years of knowledge and experience generously given by several people through the turning club I belong to. They have given demos, answered questions, shared tricks and tips and provided general encouragement. One of the founding and hardest working members offers a beginners turning course IN HIS OWN HOME FOR FREE!!! This is not a very hands on class, but the information is shown up close and personal. I have also had the great opportunity to see several well-known and highly skilled profesional turners demo and teach. While again not hands-on, they have been exceptionally generous with their knowledge.

All this leads back to your original standard response of find someone to help you learn. None of us start out as experienced experts. We all have to learn from the beginning and it sure is great to have someone to show you the way. My teachers were very tolerant of my enthusiasm. They put up with endless questions, looking over their shoulders, and generally being a pain in the butt. I can't thank them enough for all they have done to help me do better at what I so enjoy. This site is a big part of that ongoing education so thanks to all!!

I hope to take more formal course work sometime in the near future myself. The hard part is deciding with whom and what topic. There are so many great opportunities available.

Sorry this got so long but it is something I strongly believe in as well.

Happy and Safe Turning, Don

Re: Why do we do this? (LONG)

Keith Tompkins

>Hi Doug, Great topic! Anyone who teaches will have similar experiences to yours. I have students who have attended classes on piercing, carving, texturing, etc., but have NOT mastered the basics of turning! Maybe it's the desire to create a piece of art without understanding the need for mastering the basics.(music is the same....5K for a guitar, no lessons!)

There is a bit of ego involved also.....I have to approach students who finally come to the school (out of frustration) very carefully. Usually, we need to start all over, from tool sharpening to basic cuts, to understanding a bit of design. It's not easy to admit to yourself that 1. I need help. 2. I need to start over. 3. I may need to swallow my pride. 4. A bigger lathe will not improve my work.

There are so many turners that are willing to help today.....there really is no reason to struggle for years learning to turn. I suggest finding the very best turner in the area...and learn from them.

P.S. Giving Back

Don Orr

>Forgot to mention that my skills and knowledge base acquired from all those great turners has allowed me to start giving back by helping the newer folks in our club. Feels pretty good to pass it on.

Re: Why do we do this? (LONG)

Bill Howatt

>It isn't restricted to turning either. Many companies spend millions of dollars on the latest computer systems. They are happy to quote all sorts of numbers on how big and fast it is but when it comes to spending money training staff to actually use all the power; sorry, just learn by teaching yourself.

Psychologists might argue that if you take the course and still can't make a bowl then it now has to be your fault. Hard to admit that.

Bill

Re: Why do we do this? (LONG)

Carole in VA

>Plain and simple. I have no one within a reasonable distance to take lessons from and due to family obligations I cannot travel for a multi-day class. As much as I would like to learn from a Pro, I am stuck with teaching myself with the help of my Internet friends, books, videos.

Re: Why do we do this? (LONG)

Mike Schwing from Md.

>Hmm. I don't balk at paying for a lesson. However, I do not enjoy learning from instructors 1/100th as much as I do from my own trial and error. I learn MUCH more along the way of solving one of my own problems than I do if someone simply shows me how.

Even if they tell me why something works, it cannot duplicate the value in what I have learned during the 100 failed attempts that instructor might have saved me.

I also think this allows the creation of new techniques and approaches that are stifled during formalized instruction. There is often a "watch me, do it this way" approach to teaching, rather than "lets think about why this works". I just don't do well with the former method. Learning on my own makes me think it through.

Please don't take this to mean I don't absolutely enjoy and value learning from a turner who has more experience than me - quite the opposite. So far I have paid for two classes related to turning - an "Intro to the lathe" before I even owned one, and a finial box making class from Cindy Drozda a few weeks ago. In between those two classes, and during those 2 years that spans them, I have taught myself all of the other techniques my work demonstrates, from my instructors here on Woodcentral - you among them, and books and videos.

Basically, if I have an extra $100 to spend, I'd prefer to take my bride to a fancy restaurant and tough the "rough spots" on my bowl out on my own.

Re: Why do we do this? (LONG)

Jim Davies, Clayton, NJ

>A very interesting question. I am a "hands on" type of person. Been working with wood for over 30 years and am still learning something new on just about any project I do.

I started turning over 4 years ago and could not find any one in my area. I have spent much time on forus such as this one and have learned from many of you. Books and magazine articles have also been helpful.

My wife, being disabled, often meens I have to limit my time away so traveling to take a class is hard. Thankfully I just found a new AAW chapter in Delaware and joined it this past week and am really looking forward to what I can learn from the chapter.

Jim D.

Re: Why do we do this? (LONG)

echo8287

>I am guessing its the same reason we don't ask for directions when driving. We'll go 20 miles out of the way BEFORE we have to ask. Must be some type of ego issue. David

Re: Why do we do this? (LONG)

John Lucas

>David

I think you nailed it. I like to think that I can read a book and go out there and do it. I will go to extremes trying to accomplish this. I'll also tell myself the that just over the next hill is the road I'm looking for and will do this over 10 miles of hills.

I have taken a few short courses and boy did they pay off. You learn so much that a book can't teach you.

I guess the reason I balk is just the money. I have to justify it ormake it pay for itself. I can justify buying a tool because I have reasoned that I "need" that (even though sometimes I don't). Most hands on classes that I've looked into are a lot more than the $100 I might spend on a tool. By the time you add in travel etc it's often more like $500 to $1000. That's really hard for me.

I've reached the point now that I can't learn new techniques from a book. The techniques I want to learn are tool usage and you have to see the person do it to understand how it works. That's why I volunteer to run the video camera at demos and symposiums. I need to be up close and watch the subtle movement the instructor does to understand how he's using the tool. There's more to it than just pointing the flute to 10 oclock or whatever. Taking a hands on class where the actually show you how to make the cut and then correct you when you don't do it right is the best way but unfortunately not always affordable.

Re: Why do we do this? (LONG)

gary clarke

>when your too old to learn your dead! enough said.

Reluctance

Jennifer@Indy.USA

>Hi Doug,

I'm enjoying this thread. I agree with you. There is no better way for someone to get started, improve, or move to the next level than to invest in some sort of educational experience with the lathe. Even if it's going to the library to check out a video. When I finally did it I was so surprised at not only how much I learned, but how much it helped my turning and besides...it is SO much fun to take a class or spend time with other turners!

On the door of my shop I have a quote that goes like this.

"The most common money related mistake that artists make is the reluctance to invest in their own careers." - Caroll Michels

Jennifer

Re: With no lessons available

Arch

>how did previous generations of self taught turners get so good, enjoy their work so much and move the craft so far? Many of those generations didn't, so I guess that enthusiasm and practice might be the master words, regardless of how the

survivors learned.

I don't think the basics are difficult to learn and beginners aren't likely to repeat the destructive errors we all made. I suspect it's the advanced turners who profit most from lessons and there's no shame in that.

There are multiple pathways one can choose in learning how to turn wood and many levels to reach for. In our craft, one size never fits all.

Hearing Disabilities

Spence in Rhode Island

>Sometimes a hearing disability will hold someone back from taking a class. A very large segment of the population is Hard of Hearing (HOH). Many don't even realize it or willing to admit that they are HOH but because of the diffuculty of understanding others they hesitate to participate in classes or clubs out of fear of looking foolish. I know this from first hand experience. At the age of 50 I've now been stone deaf for around 12 years. I would love to join a club and take group classes but without very expensive accomadations its impossible for me to understand whats being said. One on one teaching might work if the other person is very patient but that can be very expensive also. I have yet to find a turning DVD/Vidieo that is closed captioned. I brought this up to Bill Grumbine but it was too late in the production phase for him to do anything about it on his DVD. Maybe in the next one? (Hint, Hint, Bill! LOL)

Ok I guess this turned into a rant. I know I'm not alone in the desire to participate more and that others are held back for the same reasons.

Regards of course,

Spence

Nothing to add...you nailed it!G)

Terry Daniel

>

Re: Why do we do this? (LONG)

Jim Eddy

>As a long time woodworker but a recent turner, I've come to appreciate some of the differences in learning the craft. I've always been able to pick up a technique quickly, or devise my own, but I find that turning is so much more about nuance. Learning to turn from a book is much like learning to dance.

The weekend class I took from Lyle Jamieson gave me a huge boost in skill and confidence. I only wish I could find time and resources to do more. And I will. I just wish there was an AAW chapter that was less than 2 hours drive away.

Re: Why do we do this? (LONG)

JL

>I have been fortunate enough to have had a series of classes with various turners. Among them have been Frank Bowers, Hal Simpson and Nick Cook. I have received excellent advice from the members of WC and other turners. Maybe some people suffer from the anxiety of being classified as students. I don't know. I hope to always desire to learn new things. Learning new things is sometimes a challenge, but hey - it's fun.

Re: Why do we do this? (LONG)

John Lucas

>Jl

You just mentioned 3 of my favorite people. Fortunatley I got to visit with all 3 at the southern States Symposium.

Re: Why do we do this? (LONG)

Duane C.Leach

>Great topic Doug. As a woodturning teacher and a very active local turning club member, I have had many conversations with both types of turners. That is students and turners who don't want to be students. Some times thoes who don't want to be students have an ego problem. They took shop class in high school including turning. Their for,any one, even one with little education should be able to turn. Or to put in other words they are embaraced becasue they can't do something that in their minds is high school level.

Sometimes the male ego gets in the way as well. I am a male there for I can do any thing I set my mind to. For that big ego lessons would break that ego. Make him less of a man at the very least in his own mind.

Some folks just can't aford lessons or find the time.

Some people are afraid they will show how little they do know about turning,or make a big mastake in front of others and be embarsed.

There are many reasons,or should I say excuses people use not to take lessons. Maybe they just don't care about turning as much as we do. But thats ok. It"s more wood for us to turn.

Happy turning

Duane

Re: Why do we do this? (LONG)

Terry Daniel

>Duane, you hit on something that I hear often but one example stands out. A guy called me for lessons and wanted to share the class with another person. On the phone he told me he was an experienced turner but he needed a little help in a couple of areas. After an hour or so of instruction he said "I just thought I knew a lot about turning, heck, I don't know anything". He had never used a bowl gouge and was amazed at the chips he could make with it. He knew nothing about the thirds rule and his best finish came from a spray can. At the end of the day he was a much bettr turner. As Russ stated a while ago, " doing everything the same way every day for 20 years does not account for 20 years experience, it is merely one day's experience repeated thousands of times."

A learning style that fits...

Glenn Madsen in the SF Bay area

>is the one that gets the best response for each participant. And how many of us realise what that style would be, for us, for a certain topic or skill? It would almost certainly vary, depending on many things.

For the things I need to learn next, a class with [show me] [watch me try] [evaluate] [repeat as needed] would work best. Facilities which are set up for group lessons, for such a style, are few (or hiding?) For me to take 8 days and $1k+ to go to Provo right now would be a real challenge.

There is a real demand for lessons in the SF East Bay. Woodcraft keeps adding classes, and yet they are still booked 8 weeks out, for the most part, so I guess someone is taking the classes.

Internet friends, books, videos

John K Jordan

>>I am stuck with teaching myself with the help

>of my Internet friends, books, videos.

What we need are traveling woodturning instructor gypsies who come for a week and shack out in the barn and eat our food and make shavings during the day!

But I don't think working in physical isolation is a serious problem with the resources you mentioned. I'm certainly no expert at this point, but my experience to this point:

Before I knew about all the turning books available, I tried a huge number of things on my cheap lathe with cheap tools and learned a lot from trial and error. Made some interesting things!

Before I discovered videos I bought nearly every book I could find and read and re-read. This helped a lot.

Before I found out about clubs and demos and courses I ordered several videos and found them useful, but not essential.

I've taken two courses to date and while I learned a lot, I learned very little about woodturning that I didn't already know. I'm not so conceited to be unteachable or imagine I knew too much already, but both courses targeted a wide range of skill levels and most of the allotted time was spent on basic concepts. However, they WERE a lot of fun and I plan on taking more. I'm sure a one-on-one or more specialized course would be different.

Thinking back, the books helped me the most. While a video is great, it by necessity must leave out much background and detail or be 30 hours in length. I know different people learn in different ways and some just don't learn well from books, so fortunately there are both.

This forum is also incredibly helpful, not only for inspiration but for problem solving and resource and tool recommendations from people actually doing great things! I would have bypassed several expensive mistakes if I had known about this from the start. (Thanks, Ellis and WC'ers!)

One other comment - I don't think it necessarily a bad thing to be self taught, at least for a while. Creative experimentation can open horizons that might be limited by focusing too much on the "rules" or accepted standards, both in method and design. For example, if my first course instructor had influenced me too much, I may have never tried some very thin or very thick bowls (2" thick in 8" bowl), made any base other than with the 1/3 rule, or tried turning some "difficult" woods. I have nothing against him or anyone who wants to turn out formula work, but I prefer to follow my late mother's advice 40 years ago, (given at the time on how to get along with women!) - "listen very carefully, smile and nod your head, then do exactly as you please." :)

Hey, we could start a "exchange a home video" club and trade poorly-shot amateur videos of our turning exploits complete with uncensored commentary - next best thing to being there!

JKJ in East TN

Hearing Disabilities - some ideas

John K Jordan

>>I have yet to find a turning DVD/Vidieo

>that is closed captioned.

Hi, Spence.

One thing you might look into if you haven't already: I've bought a few videos and can watch some with the audio turned off and still not miss much of anything!

For example, Richard Raffan has a series of books and companion videos. The videos follow the books but leave out most of the background and details. I got the most from the videos by reading the book then watching the same segment on the video. Watching how he holds the tools and moves and develops the piece is usually more important than what he says, i.e., "oops, a catch", "apply the finish", etc.

Also, in case you are not aware the DIY network has a series of woodturning programs with Dave Hout. These are closed captioned. I've recorded a bunch from Dish satellite on a DVR and the captioning is also recorded. These 1/2 hour shows leave out much information and target the beginner (and seem to have a lot of errors!) but I find something useful in each one. I haven't checked, but if you don't get the DIY channel you might contact them and see if they sell videos of the programs.

And did you consider organizing a course for hearing impaired woodturners? If you can get enough people I'll bet you could find an willing expert instructor and a signer with woodturning interest. Perhaps that could be pulled off at one of the big regional symposiums. (I have not been to one but I've heard they welcome variety)

JKJ in East TN

videos-- Look out Bill G.

Stuart Johnson

> Hey, we could start a "exchange a home video" club and trade poorly-shot amateur videos of our turning exploits complete with uncensored commentary - next best thing to being there!

Wait a minute... We just went through the DIY photo stuff up there in the "cheap bowl" thread. Now you want to do a way with the video guys.

Re: videos-- Look out Bill G.

John K Jordan

>>Now you want to do a way with the video guys.

Oh, no! There is room in life for pro video and amateur video. What I'd like to see is less painfully bad amateur video passed off as pro video. But even poor video of a useful subject is better than pro video of something worthless (i.e., most TV broadcasts and movies today, IMHO).

I haven't bought Bill's video (yet) but from what I read, he shouldn't be worried!

I think it would be great fun if 30 or 50 people each made a short home video of themselves doing doing something interesting on their lathe or wood. (Who was beating their hollow form with a hammer? - that would be interesting!) Send all the tapes to one person to condense and edit into one video. Sell the tape for just enough to recover the cost of duplication and shipping. (Last few I did I got shrink wrapped VHS with full-color sleeves for around $5 each for 50 tapes minimum.) I think it would be a riot. Would anyone else be interested in such a video? I could easily do the video editing in a slower time (like over the winter!)

JKJ in East TN