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Knowledge You Can Build On — Est. 1998

What is Unsafe?

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What is Unsafe?

#1

What is Unsafe?

TD

>Easy answer: Anything you have never done before. Remember learning to ride a bike, drive a car, shoot a gun, use a chainsaw? Turning is no different; you are UNSAFE until you have developed the skills needed to do the job safely. While you are learning you may need to wear a hockey mask, wear body armor, run the lathe at very low speeds, turn very small objects, etc.; but that does not mean you need to take all these precautions after you have reached a level of skill where you can do without these aids with little risk of injury. If you are a new turner and haven't reached sufficient skill level you may see veteran turners do things that "appear" dangerous; most likely it is not dangerous for the person doing it but would be dangerous to you. Some people think wearing gloves while turning is dangerous and they give statistics to back up their claims; actually, what is dangerous is wiping the toolrest off while the lathe is running.....with or without the gloves. So to the new turners I say this: give us old farts a break, sometimes we know what we are doing.

TD

Re: What is Unsafe?

#2

Re: What is Unsafe?

JamieDonaldson

>TD-you mean you play with GUNS!!??Now some whacko group like PITA will be after you, and you kill trees too??

Re: What is Unsafe?

#3

Re: What is Unsafe?

Russ Fairfield

>Thanks, TD. Why didn't I think of that??

Re: What is Unsafe?

#4

Re: What is Unsafe?

Jim King-Iquitos,Peru

>TD: Good answer

Re: What is Unsafe?

#5

Re: What is Unsafe?

David Galloway

>Hey Jaimie, Pita is what you eat a gyro with, while PETA is the "ethical treatment of animal" whack jobs. Today, the Rev. Al Sharpton joined PETA in asking folks to boycott KFC for their unethical treatment of chickens. Finger lickin' good!

Re: What is Unsafe?

#6

Re: What is Unsafe?

Bill Grumbine, Kutztown PA

>Hey, I shoot guns and I belong to PETA - People Eating Tasty Animals! And I do stuff on the lathe too. I'm a bad man. ;-)

Bill

Re: What is Unsafe?

#7

Re: What is Unsafe?

David Galloway

>More importantly, you shoot videos!

Re: What is Unsafe?

#8

Re: What is Unsafe?

Mike Schwing from Md.

>That is something that, no matter how I try, I simply cannot understand - people complaining about the ethical treament of animals that we EAT! It makes as much sense as telling me that my blue eyeballs will keep me warm in the winter more than someone else's brown ones.

After all, we're going to eat them. (no not my eyeballs). How can you possibly treat them worse?

Re: What is Unsafe?

#9

Re: What is Unsafe?

Raymond Overman in SC

>TD, you're welcome to your opinion but I think there is a thin line between something being unsafe in the hands of a beginner and the hands of an experienced person. If Murphy is correct, and she is a lot in my world, the tendency for something to go wrong increases given opportunity and it usually will. That being said, I think experience allows you to beat the odds a lot of the time. The problem is, when the house wins, they win big and you get hurt bad.

A lot of time people take short cuts that can hurt them. They do it because they've gotten away with it a dozen times before. They do things unconsciously that are unsafe. This doesn't mean they are right.

In woodturning, everything is dangerous. Anytime you mix heavy chunks of wood, spinning at high rates of speed, causing minute particles to become airborne, finished with something that is flammable, toxic, and has inhalation warnings there is an inherent risk involved. There are techniques to make it safer but not safe.

Just because I haven't had a chip fly off my drill press doesn't mean I don't wear eye protection when I'm using it. Experience tells me it won't happen. Common sense tells me it could and I can prevent it.

Don't get me wrong. I use my fingers to feel for imperfections in pens and other spindle turnings I do too. I think Russ got a bad rap for his post and there was a lost opportunity for a safety discussion. Overall this thing has been blown out of proportion.

Re: What is Unsafe?

#10

Ray....

TD

>I did not and do not advocate abandonment of all safety apparatus. I merely stated that some of us need more safety gear than others. By all means use what you need; but what I need and what you need may not be the same thing. Eye protection is always needed as well as protection from dust but the goalie mask would only be used by a few and then only when they were turning wood that had flaws or when turning at a high rpm. I guess I missed your point?

TD

Re: What is Unsafe?

#11

Re: Ray....

Raymond Overman in SC

>My point is that given the opportunity and the right circumstances an experienced turner can get hurt doing something they've done one thousand times before without getting hurt. That injury could have been prevented if they were not "comfortable" with an unsafe practice.

I'm just saying that because you're experienced, it doesn't make something safe. If something can go wrong, it will. Sometimes you have to take a calculated risk to get the results you want.

Re: What is Unsafe?

#12

Re: What is Unsafe?

Russ Fairfield

>The only way to guarantee "No Risk Woodturning" is to lock the shop, cut the power at the meter, and do something else to occupy our time. Anything else will have a risk associated with it. How much risk we are willing to take is a personal choice.

Some risks are a given. Some risks will be discovered the hard way. Others will be reduced with experience. And some risks will be enhanced with familiarity and complacency.

Even harrassing your Moderator may have some collateral risk. {8>)

How about some discussion of how we can do better at defining the risks associated with our technique messages and answers to the questions??

Don't suggest anything that will make everybody afraid to post a message. And, don't suggest that all messages be monitored for their safety content unless you are willing to volunteer to do it.

Re: What is Unsafe?

#13

Training wheels on a Harley?

TD

>When you are learning to ride a bike you might use training wheels but eventually you take them off. I rest my case.TD

Re: What is Unsafe?

#14

Re: What is Unsafe?

tek

>Do you use your lathe as a rasting spit?

Re: What is Unsafe?

#15

Ellis Walentine

SAFETY FIRST

Ellis Walentine

>As with print publications, WoodCentral is avessel for information. Visitors are encouraged here to partake in the free exchange of information WITH THE UNDERSTANDING that what you see and read here is the opinion of someone else, and only an opinion. Certain things you see here are absolutely correct, most of the dialog is constructive and valuable, but WoodCentral (and I personally, and all our moderators and helpers) do not endorse or recommend or otherwise assume any liability for content posted here.

As we used to say in the magazine business, usually on the editorial page, woodworking is a dangerous activity. If anything seems at all awkward or unsafe to you, please don't do it. You alone are responsible for your safety.

Russ's decision to take the better part of valor with his photos today was well intentioned, but I'm not convinced it was necessary. I'm not a lawyer, nor can I particularly afford one, but I think that participants in forums such as this are allowed to speak their version of the truth. It is the obligation of the other participants to take everything they read here with a grain of salt. The whole purpose of colloquy is for everyone to weigh in on a subject and find the areas of agreement and disagreement. This presents a much better rounded picture of the issue and is one of the inherent advantages of this kind of forum over print publications, where one author's opinion is written in stone, without discussion or counterbalancing by other reasoned opinions.

I am confident that no unsafe practices are going to survive careful examination by the many thousands of visitors we have here. If something seems fishy to you, wait a while and see what other opinions are forthcoming. Better yet, state your question or concern and stimulate a new discussion.

We're here to help and edify ourselves. Just remember that the best you can ever hope for is a preponderance of the evidence on a given subject, and in no case is it the expressed opinion of WoodCentral.

Ellis Walentine, Host

Re: What is Unsafe?

#16

Re: Training wheels on a Harley?

Russ Fairfield

>TD,

They are called a "Side Car".

Re: What is Unsafe?

#17

Re: What is Unsafe?

JamieDonaldson

>OOOpps! I meant PETA- you can tell it's past lunch time!!

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#18

Re: What is Unsafe?

JamieDonaldson

>And I bet there's some dirty stuff in Bill's video!!

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#19

Re: What is Unsafe?

Jerry Whitaker

>Anybody for some Spotted Owl soup?

Re: What is Unsafe?

#20

Mike Darlow...

Wally Dickerman at Green Valley, Az.

>Mike Darlow is a production turner in Australia. He has written several books on turning. Good books, but a little difficult to read because he gets quite technical.

In Mike's book "The Practice of Woodturning, on page 198, there is a photo of him spindle turning, using almost the identical method that Russ used in the orginal post that started all of this. Apparently Mike Darlow, by publishing the photo, thinks that it's a perfectly safe practice.

Wally

Appar

Re: What is Unsafe?

#21

Safety is not an absolute state.

Rod Peterson -- Ormond Beach

>Moreover, it is not even a pure state. As others have intimated, practically everything we do has an element of risk�to be totally safe requires an hermetically sealed residence, no sharp edges, all objects large enough to not be capable of swallowing, non-flammable, soft...etc., ad absurdum. Each of us learns to make choices as to how much risk we are willing to assume in order to practice our daily tasks.

SWMBO and I have a regular discussion about this regarding driving. I can do things driving that scare her to death. I'm not talking about two wheels or zero to 60 in 4.9 seconds; I'm talking about changing lanes between other vehicles, hitting gaps at intersections when making left turns, driving at speed, etc.

She cannot visualize moving targets or space and I did it for a living for thirty years. Moreover, I discovered a long time ago that she sees the vehicle moving at absolute speed (fence posts whizzing by) and I see it as relative (slowly gaining on the truck in the next lane). The question I ask her is, "should I reduce my driving techniques, which are well within my envelope of comfort, experience, and capabilities to her envelope of same?" I contend no.

Similarly, as comfort, experience, and capabilities extend to all the mechanical things we do, should a brand new devotee to woodworking attempt the same activities as someone with thirty years of experience on a piece of shop equipment? Absolutelty not!

More importantly, no one should expect that veteran to restrain his activities to the comfort, experience, and capability envelope of the beginner.

I was in a discussion once concerning safety practices on another tool. It was somewhat heated and the other party seemed quite adamant regarding his position based on what I assumed was a relatively similar envelope of comfort, experience, and capability as mine.

I was astounded to learn that the individual was so afraid of the machine that he had purchased what most of us would consider a convenience accesory in order to run the particular machine. It didn't even occur to him that he didn't have any defensible foundation upon which to pontificate about safety. I realized at that point that further discussion was pointless.

Unfortunately, there appear to be a few people who perhaps have no business running machinery who seem to be setting the standard of safety for the rest of us. I, for one, do not intend to reduce my operations which are well within my envelope of comfort, experience, and capabilities to accommodate some one whose envelope is less expanded than mine.

Having said all of that, an aducated assumption of risk is based on an accurate assessment of same. To the inexperienced (and isolated, as much of our woodworking is) some of that assessment is uninformed and questions to or comments by elder practitioners should be lent greater weight than those from someone just starting out.

Of course there are some things that we can probably all agree are safety absolutes�eye protection, hearing protection, push sticks, etc. Mainly, though, to expand on the premise of the subject line, my safe state and your safe state may not be exactly the same thing.

Rod

Re: What is Unsafe?

#22

Well said!.

TD

>

Re: What is Unsafe?

#23

Re: Safety is not an absolute state.

Ted Pode (Macomb, MI)

>Not only relative, a sense of safety has a great deal to do with the old adage that "familiarity breeds contempt." I'm a working carpenter in every respect of the trade from framing to casework and I give myself and my employees a daily reality check. Through ignornance or indifference or just blind luck we often do things that plainly are unsafe and we konw better. After 40 years, I'm conscientiously trying to use a push stick on the table saw. One person's normalcy is idiotic to another. Havin g said all that, I worry every minute of every working day that people do precisely as I saw and ignore those things I might do. Its kinda like swearing in front of your kids or grandkids, you just hope they weren't paying attention when you did it.

Safety is expensive and it is work to preserve. Many of the times I took a chance I paid a price. Now I'm getting to an age where there is NO excuse for doing something stupid...no sinner like a reformed one.

Work safe. The guidelines are there to protect you but only you can determine what is safe for you in actual practice.

Re: What is Unsafe?

#24

Re: What is Unsafe?

Dinyar Chavda

>Well, Mike, as you know, we have capital punishment. While there is a fair amount of debate in support of, and against this practice, I have yet to hear a proponent of capital punishment suggest that we revert to burning people at the stake, or flaying them to death. Just because society has decided to kill someone, does not mean that the person should be made to suffer through a prolonged and barbarous death.

In the same way, there has been sufficient research conducted to show that there are humane ways and cruel ways of raising and killing animals that are bred for the express purpose of becoming human food (or clothing, etc.). In fact, McDonalds now has a checklist of measurable, objective, tested criteria that can be administered by an independent observer, and the company will not do business with slaughter houses that do not achieve a minimum score on this test. One component is whether the cow is killed with one treatment, or whether the animal is merely wounded by the first shot, and requires multiple applications to be killed. On the other hand, it turns out that animals are more relaxed when they are gently squeezed from the sides, and the better slaughter houses now have pens where the sides press into the cow, and that seems to relax her before she is killed. Experiments also show that cows moo a lot when they are nervous, and another criterion to judge how good a slaughter house is is by the noise of the animals.

Yes, we are going to eat them, which necessitates killing them, but if it requires the "whackjobs at PETA" to push companies to raise and kill animals in a gentler fashion, more power to them. Maybe this makes me another "left wing environmentalist do-gooder crank", but I'll be in good company.

Dinyar

P.S. I am an omnivore, so I am not making this comment on the basis of personal dietary practices.

Re: What is Unsafe?

#25

Re: What is Unsafe?

Mike Schwing from Md.

>I suppose the most succinct thought I can come up with on the subject is that I couldn't care less what we do with animals that we plan on eating. But lay an angry hand on my dogs...

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