steel question

Re: steel question

Fred Holder

>Your high speed steel tools should work just fine. Just exert care when sharpening so as not to draw the temper. Generally on high speed steel tools, if it turns blue when grinding, you have drawn the temper in that spot. They will likely take a sharper edge than the HSS but will require sharpening more ofter. Sharpen them and use them.

Re: steel question

John Lucas

>Fred

Did you mean to say on High Carbon steel tools if you blue the edge you've remove the temper. My understanding is on High Speed Steel Tools if you blue the edge you haven't hurt the temper. I know your a blacksmith so I figured you just wrote the wrong terms unless I'm the one who's confused.

Re: steel question

Bob Persing (Skillman NJ)

>Jared,

I have slowly replaced most of my carbon steel turning tools with newer, HSS tools, but the carbon steel tools served me and my father before me quite nicely (hobby turning). The HSS will hold a sharp edge longer than the carbon steel but I use a small diamond file (EZ-Lap or DMT) to touch up the edge of the carbon steel tools as I am turning. My carbon steel tools come from Buck Bros, Greenlee and Record with some dating back to the 40's.

Go for it.

BobP

Re: Metalurgy

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In Jersey

>Fred,

I've heard/read this "High Carbon vs. HSS and the Sharper Edge" issue a number of times on a number of Internet forums, yet I still have to question the concept. If I sharpen both a high carbon steel tool and an M2 on the exact same 120 wheel, I am going to get exactly the same sharpness on either tool.

Now, if this issue comes up from a scientific basis, such as to the size of the grains in the alloy, the statement may be "technically" correct. But it is also a useless bit of knowledge because no turner in his/her right (or left), OCD notwithstanding, mind is going spend the time trying to sharpen an edge to the molecular level of the steel.

M

Re: Yes there IS a question in there!

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In Jersey

>

Re: steel question

Wood Spinner

>Carbon steel will lose temper at a lower temp than HHS.

On the carbon steel I keep a jar oj cool water to dip the tool in as I sharpen. Do not get the tool tip white hot and then dip. Dip often and keep the temp down.

The blue on a HHS tool is not a problem.

I often regrind some of the old carbon tools into a specialty shape that I do not work as hard.

Good turning and be safe.

Bill

Re: Metalurgy

John Lucas

>Mark

I won't argue your point but I can sharpen both tools on the same 100 grit wheel and my carbon steel gouge cuts cleaner than my HSS tool. Don't ask me why it just does. I've also found the same thing to be true on my parting tools. The edge doesn't last very long at all but they do work well when freshly sharpened.

Re: Mental or Metal?

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In Jersey

>Hi John,

No "argument" needed or requested. I have both as well, but neither see nor feel any difference (aside from having to resharpen more often).

I'd really like to know if this is a subjective thing or whether someone has actually done some repeatable experiment to validate the story. For instance, I can certainly see someone with both tools pushing harder on the more durable HSS version while taking it lighter with the carbon steel. That would tend to give a rougher edge and more burr on the High Speed and a smoother/sharper edge on the carbon, but would have nothing to do with the alloy. Same would be true even if you honed the flute's surface on both tools to remove the burr.

M

Re: Metalurgy

Russ Fairfield

>The answer to the question of which steel will hold the sharper edge, Carbon or HSS, is another of those, "It depends".

Its ingredients are important, but there is a lot more to the story than a broad classification and a hardness number. Besides the steel spec, there is its crystalline structure, particle size in the case of the higher alloy HSS steels, and the distribution of the alloying metals. Then there are the factors of the tool edge profile thickness, and angle.

A carbon steel scraper is said to be the better edge because it is easier to form a larger burr with either the grinding wheel or burnisher.

Edge tools can be either way, depending on the quality of the steel as it relates to crystal or particle size, distribution of alloys, uniformity, hardness, and how it is sharpened. HSS alone is not a guarantee that it is better steel than a carbon steel.

Re: Steel

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In Jersey

>Thanks, Russ.

I've made inquiry with a metalurgist and toolmaker on the question, and will post the response.

My question, however, is not whether one steel or the other will "HOLD" a sharp edge longer, but rather the often seen statement that a carbon steel tool will, all things being equal, give a sharper edge than say M2 or M4. I have several ASP 2060 tools and know they'll outlast carbon, but I don't see any difference in the fineness of the edge fresh off the same grind wheel.