Mapp ?

Re: Mapp ?

Bill Turpin in WNC mountains

>Yes, propane also gets hot enough if you use easy flow silver solder. Search the WC articles for soldering.

Bill in WNC mountains

Re: Mapp ?

Caleb SG

>Is solder strong enough?

Re: Mapp ?

Leo Van Der Loo

>Hi Caleb,

It should be called brazing IMO

But silver soldering is very strong, carbide bits silver soldered on steel are used on metal turning lathes for instance, mind you they don't stick far over the edge, or the carbide bit would break.

Have fun and take care

Leo V

Re: Mapp ?

Don Evans

>Hi Leo:

There are two different procedures, so you cannot just call it one and not the other.

What makes the difference is the temperature at which the silver compound flows.

The magic number is 840 deg F. If you are using a silver compound that melts below that temp, then you are silver soldering, if it melts above that temp, then you are silver brazing. They are not one but two different things.

As far as strength of the join goes, one thing I've never seen anyone mention is that the gap between the two materials has a great deal to do with the joints strength. For example .002 gap compared to .004 in silver brazing will cut the tensil strength of the join in half.

Don

Re: Mapp ?

john Lucas

>Don

Your very right. I think this thread started off wrong. Welding is done much hotter than Mapp gass or Propane will achive. I use a mapp gass and oxygen system to braze small items. Mapp gass alone won't do this with the brazing sticks I have. There may be some on the market designed for this.

Silver solder is what most turners are using to bind carbide or Hss tips to the tools. Although Don is right about the strength of the joint being stronger with a tight fitting joint. I've done some pretty sloppy fitting in the past and filled the holes with silver solder and have yet to have a tool come loose.

You don't need solder at all. 3/16 HSS square bits will be a jam fit in a 1/4" round hole. A little CA glue or epoxy will hold it quite well. If you knock the corners off slightly you can hold it in place with a setscrew and remove it for sharpening quite easily.

Re: Mapp ?

Bill Turpin in WNC mountains

>The silver solder I was referring to is actually a brazing compound. It is available in 1/16" diameter rolls sold by the ounce. It runs about $10 to $12/ounce for 45% silver easy flow. Many inches in an ounce. With the tolerances found in copper tubing and fittings the tensile strength approaches 90,000 psi.

Bill Turpin in WNC mountains

Re: Mapp ?

Ron in Drums PA

>I guess I used the wrong word when I said welding, Is brazing correct or is soldering better?

John, from your post I'm assuming that a Mapp/Oxygen is hotter then just Mapp alone. So would I be better off getting a two gas system?

Also, I noticed there are different types of silver solder, which one would be the correct one to use?

Re: Mapp ?

john Lucas

>Ron

I'm not an expert on this but I believe the mapp gass/oxygen is hotter. I can weld with the mapp gass/oxygen. Mapp gass will do the job quite nicely for our purposes. The 2 tank system is not only hotter but easier to control. This is a better system for jewelry makers and would be good if you have the money for our purposes but it's expensive. I bought one of the small 2 tank systems from Lowes. I don't recommend it. The oxygen tanks are $9 and you go through one just about every use.

Larger 2 tank systems are good but run about $250 and up.

There are 3 grades of silver solder that I use. Soft, Medium and Hard. They melt at different temperatures are used in jewelry making when you need to solder 2 or more parts together. You start with the hard solder and then use medium next. If your careful with your heat you won't melt the hard solder when the medium starts to flow. I've used all 3 for solder tips on my tools and can't tell the difference.

Re: Mapp ?

Ron In Drums PA

>Thanks the the heads up about not being happy with the products at Loews. I was looking at a single tanks system for $39.00 and a double tank system for $89.

Do you think only using the soft grade will work instead of using all three for one "solder/braze/weld"

TIA

Re: Mapp ?

Don Evans

>Not really Ron, silver soldering and silver brazing are both forms of welding recognized by the American Welding Society.

So in the USA anyway, your wording is right on mark.

Don

Re: Mapp ?

Don Evans

>Ron:

You don't really need to use more than one type in the tool making application.

The main reason jewelry makers use the multi melt is because of the small area they are working in. An example would be a ring, that has a middle setting and two other settings one on each side of the middle one. Because it's almost impossible to clamp all three of these up on top and have room for fire solder etc, they mount the middle one with the hard, then one on the side with a softer solder so the middle one will not melt and fall off.

In making a tool, its larger more room to work, and even if you want to put 3 cutters on it side by side you could probably clamp all of them at once and use one solder.

Dynaflow and under them JW Harris make these solders and brazing materials plus the flux. Do a search (google) on Dynaflow and I'm sure you will find some information on melting temps of there products etc. You'll find that solders are around 400 to 550 deg F and brazing is up around 1200 to what ever, I don't know top end. Point is, there isn't anything close to the cut over of 840 deg.

Just realize that if you want to braze, you have to use a gas and or oxygen mixture to turn the material cherry red. That is easier to do with copper tubing than solid cold roll steel when making a tool.

I'm lucky to have a large oxy/aceth system, but I have tried the small mapp/oxy system that Lowes has. In my opinion it is a waste of money because it takes so long to get the flame right you can eat up a $9.00 bottle of oxy just setting it up.

A system without regulators will eat up lot of expensive gas. Use a couple bottles of oxy and one mapps and you've spent as much as buying a tool in a lot of cases. But you miss out on the fun and learning which is worth alot also.

Don

Re: Mapp ?

Bill Turpin in WNC mountains

>Dynaflow is a 6% silver phos-copper brazing rod that JW Harris Co developed about 25 years ago when silver got so expensive. It is designed for copper to copper joints. It does not like brass or steel. JW Harris's Stay-Silv alloys work fine for steel or disimilar joints. The need to use different melting points of solder on multiple joints in jewelry making is somewhat of a wives tale. If the entire piece of jewelry is cleaned in an acid pickle between melts and the ENTIRE piece is re-coated with flux, multiple melts can be done with easy flow solder. My wife wears a sterling pendant I made from thirty-seven pieces of silver and fourteen easy-flow solder melts. The pendant is the size of a postage stamp. I wrote a copywrited article for "Rock and Gem" magazine on this technique in the early seventies. The trick to silver brazing steel is clean, clean, and do not over heat.

Bill Turpin in WNC mountains

Thanks for the info

Ron in Drums PA

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