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Salad bowls finishes

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Salad bowls finishes

#1

Salad bowls finishes

Russ Fairfield

>I have received several e-mails asking about using alcohol or LDD on a salad bowl, and whether there were any residuals that would be harmful if the bowl were used. I thought my replies might be of some general interest.

We always hear the argument that the only harmful finishing product, lead paint, has already been pulled off the market by the EPA or whoever does such things. Personally, I think this is a reasonable argument, but, other than woodworkers, most people don't believe us.

My attitude is, "Why take a chance??"

I use nothing on the inside of a salad bowl that I wouldn't drink straight out of the bottle or can. If I can eat it with the lettuce, and it doesn't get stuck in my teeth, then it is OK to use. That removes all possible doubt.

Since I would not drink denatured alcohol from the can, I wouldn't use it on a salad bowl. Same would apply for the Liquid Dishwashing Detergent. This may be overly cautious, but it is an easy position to explain to a warry public.

There is a problem with using a Walnut Oil because some folks are allergic to Walnuts. Rather than trying to explain that it is the proteins in the nuts that are the problem, and that domestic oils are OK to use, I always had something else available for them. However, the number of people who avoid anything Walnut has grown to the point where I no longer use Walnut Oil. Again, it is easier to say that there are no bowls with Walnut Oil, than to spend the time explaining what oil was used on which bowls.

Sunflower (not to be confused with Safflower) Oil, Hazel Nut, or Citrus Oils are good alternatives to Walnut Oil.

Anyway, that is my position on the topic. Feel free to disagree.

Re: Salad bowls finishes

#2

Re: Oil

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In Jersey

>Russ,

As long as you're erring on the side of full safety from possible allergens, I'd suggest you avoid ALL nut oils, including the Hazel. I do remember an MD telling me once that if you look long and hard enough, you will find somebody who is sensitive, if not allergic, to most anything, other than water, that you can name.

Mark

Re: Salad bowls finishes

#3

burnished only

Dave MacLuskie

>How about the no-finish option. In my inability to decide which oils I just didn't put any finish inside the bowl (though I did finish the outside). I figured folks could use it as is, or apply their own oil.

Has anyone seen a sales impact with that model (positive or negative)?

Re: Salad bowls finishes

#4

Re: burnished only

JamieDonaldson

>Why not good ol' mineral oil? It seems to be the best alternative for all edible safe objects.

Re: Salad bowls finishes

#5

Re: M-O

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In Jersey

>Jamie,

That's what I have used on any "use" object for years.

But just when you think any one thing is safe . .

I was doing some research into a form of cancer called Multiple Myaloma and discovered that the incidence of the disease is much higher in people like petro-chemical workers, beauticians, mechanics and others who are exposed to hydrocarbon products on a regular basis over their lives. Since Mineral Oil, that food safe substance (and Great-Granny's avowed nightcap), is, along with Vasoline, pure petroleum, perhaps we should pass on that one as well.

Oh well, nobody gets outta here alive anyway.

|;-}

MM

Re: Salad bowls finishes

#6

Re: Salad bowls finishes

Ron in Drums PA

>Russ I would agree with you.

I do printing for a winery. Recently I took a tour with the owner. While I was watching the "Newer Type Corks" being inserted into the bottle. I noticed they where using DNA as a lubricant. To my surprise when I asked if DNA was safe he replied that this is a common practice industry wide.

I stopped drinking any wine that has the "Newer Type Corks"

Re: Salad bowls finishes

#7

Re: Salad bowls finishes

RevDoug

>What happened to your "no-finish" finish answer?

Re: Salad bowls finishes

#8

Re: Salad bowls finishes

Mark Kauder, Phenix City, AL

>Russ,

I learned never to disagree with you. Statistically it is losing proposition. But.....following your logic, what do you use to wash your dishes? What would you use to clean (even if only on a damp cloth) to clean your salad bowls?

Just asking, because I do not really disagree with you.

Mark

Re: Salad bowls finishes

#9

Re: Salad bowls finishes

bill Crommett in seneca

>Question: Is sunflower oil a drying oil ?

Re: Salad bowls finishes

#10

Re: Salad bowls finishes

John Lucas

>Russ

That may be why I don't make many bowls. I agree 100% with the statement that if you have to explain it to the customer you've lost the sale.

This should be a good topic for the finishing chat tonight. I'll try to be there but have to rig up some heat for my new shop so I don't lose any of those wonderful finishes to the freeze that's coming this weekend.

I tried the no finish at all. I just don't like the way it looks. At least without some sort of wax or something but then that rules out the no finish.

I tried The salad bowl finish and didn't like the way it looked. I think I didn't play with it enough to learn how to use it properly. It always seemed to streak. If you buff it with the Beal your adding tripoli and white diamond to the wood unless you've used enough finish to fill the pores.

I played with the beeswax, mineral spirits but mixing it up was too big a hassle. (I'm totally inept in the kitchen).

I'm currently using Walnut oil but I'm not sure I like how much it darkens the wood and I couldn't get it very glossy.

I think I'll stick with non funtional.

Re: Salad bowls finishes

#11

Re: M-O

John Trant (Baltimore/DC area)

>The petroleum hydrocarbons that are carcinogenic are not the inert products like parafin wax and mineral oil. Rather the products to which you refer are called PAH (polyaromatic hydrocarbons), PCB (polyclorinated biphenols), toluene, dioxane, fuels, xylenols, and a multipde of other solvents and petroleum products. You are very safe with pure mineral oil particularly considering the minute quantites one would consume. The bacterial flora and rancid organics left over from the previous use concerns me more than the oil. Mineral oil will not turn rancid (by all practical measures). My concern would be the additives or contaminants your oil might contain unless you use pharmaceutical or analytical grade oil. Of course, concerns of contamination can relate to everything, including the food you propose to put into your salad bowl.

John

Re: Salad bowls finishes

#12

Re: Salad bowls finishes

Michael Stafford

>I don't know how much residual oil there will be on the surface of the wood when it is treated with an oil. However some people are so sensitive that they have a reaction to walnut dusts that are used at the near microscopic level as a release agent in packaging films. The FDA has identified any of the treenuts in addition to peanuts as allergens that require specific labeling therefore use of their oils on food containers would be problematic. Hazelnut is a treenut, almonds, walnuts, Brazil nuts, etc., etc.

Re: Salad bowls finishes

#13

Food-Safe Finishes - The Experts Say

Garrett in Victoria

>According to two recognized experts on finishing, and the US Federal Dept of Agriculture, all finishes are food-safe once fully cured. Note that the USFDA does express a residual concern about finishes that chip.

However, as Russ suggests, there's no point in arguing this issue with someone who "believes" otherwise, particularly if you're selling your work.

Quote

Link to Original:

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/features/finish3.html

The Folly of Food-Safe Finishes

Despite what you've read elsewhere, almost every wood finish should be considered food-safe.

By Bob Flexner

It's a shame, but many woodworkers worry about which finish to use on objects that will come into contact with food or children's mouths. The reason for the worry is that woodworkers have been conditioned by several decades of articles in woodworking magazines to believe that ordinary finishes like boiled linseed oil, alkyd varnish and polyurethane varnish may leach poisonous ingredients like metallic driers. And other finishes, like lacquer, catalyzed (two-part) finishes, shellac and water-based finishes, may leach poisonous solvent.

The idea that some finishes are harmful is reinforced by a few manufacturers who label their finishes food- or salad-bowl safe, which implies that other finishes are not.

A Non-Issue

The shame for woodworkers is that a lot of energy is spent on the issue of food safeness when none is warranted. Food safeness is a non-issue because there's no evidence of any problem. So far as we know, all finishes are safe to eat off of, and safe for children to chew on, once the finish has fully cured (the rule of thumb being 30 days).

Think About It

� Have you ever heard or read of anyone, child or adult, being poisoned from contact with a cured, non-pigmented finish?

� Is it likely that any finish could be sold in paint stores or home centers without a warning if the finish were known to be dangerous for food or mouth contact? (Paint store clerks are rarely even aware that there might be an issue.)

� If there were any evidence that common wood finishes were unsafe for food or mouth contact, why is no mention made on the MSDS (material safety data sheets)? All unsafe uses of products are required by law to be listed on these forms, along with information about treatments for resulting health problems.

� Finally, does it make any sense that commonly available oils and varnishes that contain driers and solvents could be a health risk while the so-called "food safe" oils and varnishes, which contain the same driers and solvents, aren't a problem? (These finishes wouldn't cure without the driers and would be too thick without the solvents.)

I want to make clear that I'm not saying that all finishes are food safe -- we can't be absolutely sure about the safety of any curing finish. I'm saying that there is no evidence of any common wood finish being unsafe for food or mouth contact once it has fully cured, so a distinction between food-safe and non-food-safe is speculative.

For those who would then reply, "Well, there's no point in taking a chance," I would say that we take chances everyday with almost everything we come in contact with. To rule out certain finishes when there's no evidence of a problem is unreasonable and arbitrary.

The FDA

A lot of the discussion about food safeness centers on what the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) allows. The FDA doesn't approve products, it regulates them. And it has published a set of regulations for establishing the food safeness of finishes. These regulations are contained in the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 21, Part 175, which you can find at larger public and university libraries.

There are two conditions for meeting FDA regulations.

� First, the finish must be made from among the raw materials listed on nine double-columned pages (additional ingredients can be added by a petition method). This list includes every oil, resin, drier and additive commonly used in wood finishes (polyurethane is covered in Part 177). It does not include lead or mercury. Because lead is no longer used in common wood finishes, and mercury never was, it can be assumed that all common wood finishes use only FDA-approved ingredients.

� Second, the finish must be formulated in such a way that it does not leach more than a specified amount of extractive when subjected to a variety of specified tests. The point of these tests is to show the finish cures properly. It's important to note that these tests must be done on every batch of finish to establish that no foreign substance has gotten into the finish (for example, from the finish having been made in a dirty vat), and that these tests are expensive.

No manufacturer providing finishes to the woodworking community puts their finishes through these tests. Thus, no manufacturer can legitimately claim they meet FDA regulations.

On the other hand, there's no evidence of problems, so manufacturers feel pretty safe in claiming food safeness anyway.

"Food safeness is a non-issue because there's no evidence of any problem. So far as we know, all finishes are safe to eat off of, and safe for children to chew on, once the finish has fully cured."

The Issue of Metallic Driers

Metallic driers are added to oil and varnish finishes to speed curing. Without driers, these finishes take many days or weeks to cure.

Lead driers were once commonly used in oil and varnish finishes, but in the 1970s it was learned that lead is highly toxic, especially to children. The problem was associated with the relatively large amount of lead contained in pigment and not with the tiny amount contained in clear finishes. Nevertheless, to be safe, lead was removed from all commonly available paints and finishes, including oils and varnishes. (Lead is still used in some specialty art and marine finishes, and labels are required to disclose its inclusion.)

Other metallic driers, including salts of cobalt, manganese, zirconium and zinc, continue to be used in all varnishes and curing-oil finishes except raw linseed oil and pure tung oil. Without these driers, these finishes cure extremely slowly.

There is no indication that these driers cause health problems. A very small amount is used, and it is well encased in the cured finish film so that if any is ingested, it passes through the body without causing harm.

Other Finishes

All other common wood finishes also are safe for food and child contact. In fact, commercially made wooden bowls, baby beds and children's toys are usually coated with one of these finishes.

The solvents, which cause some people to worry, evaporate out completely enough so they aren't a problem. And catalysts, which can be toxic in their liquid state, become so fully reacted with the finish that there is no evidence of a problem.

Conclusion

The issue of food safeness in finishes is a classic case of the concept "validation by repetition." Consistent, long-term repetition in woodworking magazines of a food-safeness issue, despite the complete lack of supporting evidence, has led to a widely held belief in the woodworking community that food safeness is an issue.

It shouldn't be. No other segment of society treats it as such. A more reasonable approach is as follows.

You can't be absolutely sure about the food safeness of any finish you put on wood. There could even be problems with mineral oil and walnut oil that we just don't know of yet. There could also be problems with raw linseed oil, pure tung oil, wax, shellac and salad bowl finish, because we don't know where these substances have been or what they might have come in contact with. None has met the regulations laid out by the FDA.

But, based on FDA regulations, the way finishes are made, the complete lack of any evidence to the contrary, and the countless other untested objects food and children come in contact with, there's no reasonable argument for avoiding the use of any finish. PW

Bob Flexner is a contributing editor to Popular Woodworking and the author of the book, "Understanding Wood Finishes," (Rodale Press) which is a must-read book for any woodworker who wants to understand finishing. Bob's column appears in every issue of Popular Woodworking.

� Popular Woodworking � F+W Publications Inc.

Customer Service FAQs

UNQUOTE

The comments immediately below are by Michael Dresdner, also a professional consultant on wood finishes. Two more links to FDA sites follow Dresdner's comments.

QUOTE

On food safe finishes (long)

By: Michael Dresdner janeandmichael@msn.com

Monday, 28 April 2003, at 11:58 a.m. (In Response To: Food-safe Myths & Truths (Garrett in Victoria BC)

It is true that the FDA does not use the exact term "food safe". It is also true that the FDA does not make rulings on finishes in contact with food unless the manufacturer specifically petitions them to do so. As this process is expensive, only those who care to advertise their finish as "food safe" will bother getting FDA clearance. Many others would get it if they tried.

As for practical safety:

Shellac, like honey, another material made by bugs, is edible. You all eat it on vitamins, candy, and time release medicines, and sometimes also on fruit. Edible is a lot more definitive than food safe. Ditto for raw (but not boiled) flaxseed oil (also called linseed oil), and mineral oil, which is the only one of the three that will not dry (it stays liquid forever.)

Most other finishes that cure to a solid film form a stable plastic once the solvents are gone. Eating some is just like swallowing a plastic bead. You will not be able to digest it, so it

will pass through you unaffected.

Can our bodies leach out heavy metals, or other damaging substances during digestion of plastics? Yes, it is possible, but do the math. You would have to eat a heck of a lot of cured finish to get even a small amount of contaminent into your system. (Typically, driers are added in amounts below 1%).

Is it possible for someone with a severe allergy or sensitivity to something in coatings to react to it? Yes, but then, it is possible to die from a bee sting or from eating strawberries if you are allergic or sensitive to either. Living with chemicals is a bit of a crapshoot.

Bottom line: For most of us, the danger is too small to worry about. If you are really concerned, use shellac, mineral oil (which does not dry) or raw (not boiled) linseed oil. All three are completely edible. But all have their drawbacks for bowls. Otherwise, use whatever you like and don't worry too much about it. But do ask customers if they are particularly sensitized to any particular chemicals and take it from there.

UNQUOTE

You might also want to read the following releases from the US FDA:

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?FR=175.300

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/finlines/knaeb98c.pdf

Cheers, Garrett

Re: Salad bowls finishes

#14

Re: Salad bowls finishes

Russ Fairfield

>It isn't my logic that matters. It is the illogic of those who buy the salad bowls that rules. It has nothing to do with what I believe, it is what "they" believe.

Some folks like there to be a finish of some kind on the inside of the bowl, some prefer bare wood and appreciate finding it. The ratio is about 50/50.

What is the easiest finish to sell? Nothing! Polished wood. No explanations, no qualifications, and it is definitely a finish they can eat.

Re: Salad bowls finishes

#15

Re: Thanks John

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In Jersey

>Just what I needed, stop eating.

[Thanks for the distinction on compounds as well]

M

Re: Salad bowls finishes

#16

Tried & True Danish oil

Spence in Rhode Island

>HAve I been making a mistake here?? According to the label its pure BLO and contains less than 0.010% of anything harmful. I haven't recieved any complaints and personaly haven't noticed a taste difference. Most folks tell me they love the smell.

Re: Salad bowls finishes

#17

Dick Hines

Re: Salad bowls finishes

Dick Hines

>A friend of mine turnes big salad bowls and has been doing it for years. He uses extra virgen olive oil. Says he has had not proublems and he does 100s.

Re: Salad bowls finishes

#18

Re: Thanks John

JamieDonaldson

>Nothing is safe anymore!!! My little bro the neurology researcher showed me some information about tests involving dimes attached to the skin of lab rats causing lesions, which led to the conclusion that money causes cancer! Just use the MO, and its cheaper from the local vet here in horse country. They buy it by the 50gal. drum, and its FDA approved.

Re: Salad bowls finishes

#19

Re: Tried & True Danish oil

JamieDonaldson

>But BLO tastes AWFUL!!

Re: Salad bowls finishes

#20

Olive oil

Bob Hackett

>I have refinished 2 bowls that had seen nothing but olive oil in thier 10+ years of service.

Both had turned black and were rather sticky/gummy to the touch.I found a beautiful Cuban Mahogany under the gum on one and an unidentified tropical under the other.

The owners now wash with a damp(not dripping wet) cloth,immediately dry and put the bowls away without any finish on them.

Most people are easy to convince that it`s best to leave the dressing off till the salad`s in the individual(usually ceramic) serving bowl.

Mainely,Bob

Re: Salad bowls finishes

#21

Your right when its...

Spence in Rhode Island

>straight out of the can. DAMHIKT LOL But after its fully cured I can't sense any aftertaste in a salad. Of course my fondness for habernaros and the like might have something to do with that too. :) Maybe I better switch to something else?

Thanks for the response Jamie

Regards

Spence

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