Okolehau(alcohol) users question

How much do they weigh?

Dave Smith, Longview, WA

>Hi Doug,

My data shows that pieces will lose about 90% of the total weight loss in about 5 days. If the piece is small and thin it may be hard to weigh it accurately with a spring scale. A bowl will typically increase in weight after the soaking. If it is small I would say the bowl is dry.

The following graph is about average for medium to small bowls. I don't have data on large bowls over 11" in diameter. Thicker walls and denser wood such as white oak take longer to dry.

Y axis = weight in ounces

x axis = time in hours

The graph is of a pecan bowl 1/2" thick about 6" in diameter and 2" high. It was soaked 5 hours, air dried 1 hour and then wrapped with paper. At 5 days or 120 hours the bowl is pretty much dry. Red squares are data points.

Please give me feedback on the graph, Do you find it useful? I am working on crunching numbers. But my secretary insist on going everywhere I do so no data gets entered when I am in the shop.

Dave Smith

I am heading to the lathe before I have to go to a party in Longview, WA.

Re: How much do they weigh?

Doug Leite

>Aloha Dave,

Below is a chart of my efforts thus far. The wood is Koa that was cut from trees that had been down for some time and sat around in my shop for maybe 6 mo. While not dry, they weren't soaking wet either.

Doug

Re: How much do they weigh?

Doug Leite

>Sorry, but i can't seem to include my spreadsheet.

Bowl 1 weighed 20 oz when turned and 24 oz after soaking.For the last week, after 5 days drying,it has weighed 19 oz.

Bowl 2 weighed 12 oz turned and 15 oz soaked. It now weighs 12 oz for the last 6 days after 3 days of drying.

Bowl 3 weighed 9.5 oz turned,12 oz soaked and, after 4 days drying, it now weighs 9 oz after 4 more days

I use a 10 lb. scale with 1 oz divisions that can be easily interpolated by fourths or even tenths of oz.

Thanks

Doug

Interesting.

Dave Smith, Longview, WA

>Hi Doug,

Koa in the acacia family if I remember right. I turned a piece of acacia Wally gave me a while ago. If I can find the data for it I will see how it compares. I am thinking it dried faster than I expected. Does Koa have open pores? The wood may have been drier than you thought when you started. I found that spring scales were too inaccurate to see small changes. I have a digital scale that can read 0.05 ounces which is probably too accurate.

I am assuming you are in Hawaii from your comments and your IPS address. Which Island are you on. I am going to be on Maui next month for 2 weeks. Do you know any turners on Maui I could visit?

I had to export the graph as a bit map then open it in a graphics program and save it in a jpg format. I was hoping to get some feedback on the graph as far as usefulness or anything else. When I publish an article I'll have better resolution.

I'll make a SWAG and say those bowls are ready to finish turn. Have they ovaled very much? Any problems with cracking?

Dave Smith

Dreaming of snorkeling and fresh papaya in Longview, WA.

Re: How much do they weigh?

Dave MacLuskie

>Thanks for the graph Dave! I'm a overly-scientific sort myself with a burning need to collect random data on everything. (I'm collecting my own... for no real reason other than it's oddly satisfying).

5 days is very promising for my christmas list :) I'm looking foward to seeing that curve flatten out!

In my measurements so far, if the wet-off-the-lathe weight is, say 600g, the hour-after-post-soak weight is higher, roughly 620g. I externally bag and let set, the next day I'm down to below the original 600, and drop 20-25g a day (roughly). I'm working walnut at the moment, all from the same tree, cut down in October this year.

Re: Interesting.

Doug Leite

>Aloha Dave,

I live in Hilo,on the "Big Island" of Hawaii. Yes, Koa is Acacia and yes, most Koa has somewhat open pores, and These pieces do. I am sorry, but I can't think of any turners that I know on Maui. Derek Bencomo is somewhat known, but not an acquaintance of mine. Our club, The Big Island Woodturners, has members from the islands of Oahu and Kauai, but none from Maui. What is the purpose of your trip? Vacation or work? It's a beautiful island and my wife has some family there, but we aren't close. I seem to remember that there was Koa there years ago, but I don't know the availability now.I know that there is a lot of Milo wood there as one of the galleries that I sell to there will not buy any Milo pieces from me, but will buy Koa and other woods.Ironically, Milo is more difficult to find here, but we have lots of Koa, if you know the right people. About the graph,I find it useful, but it needs expanding, which I am sure that will happen as you get more data on different woods.

Aloha,Doug

I wanted to go to The Big Island.

Dave Smith, Longview, WA

>Hi Doug,

My wife found a good deal on a condo on Maui. I prefer the big Island but my wife and sister won out. We share a condo with my sister and her husband when we go. I hope to get back to the Big Island next time we go. When do you have club meetings? Will there be one during the last two weeks of January? I could take a flight over for the day. Sounds like a plan.

The graph was for illustration of the average weigh lose for a typical bowl. I am not a statistician and I have other things to do like vacation in Hawaii so large sets of data are not forth coming. I am still looking for the acacia data. But I am sure the wood dried faster than I thought it would and it was more porous than I expected. As I said before, I would finish turn the wood now. Any time the wood stops losing weight for several days I have had no problems with the finished bowl.

The last time we were on Hawaii a lady in a Hilo gallery gave me the phone number for a turner named Elmer. He had some large vases in the gallery that I was admiring. She told me he would probably be agreeable to having me visit him. I was not so sure about calling someone out of the blue so I didn't. We were staying on the other side of the Island and weren't planning to return to Hilo that trip.

Dave Smith

Drank too much caffeine tonight in Longview, WA.

How long have they been drying?

Dave Smith, Longview, WA

>Hi Dave,

Thanks for the info. I probably should use grams instead of ounces so I wouldn't have to convert pounds to ounces. I'll survive either way.

Walnut dries fairly quickly. How many days has it been drying? Unless the walls are thick you can expect 90% of the weight loss to occur in the first 5 days. I'll look up some data on walnut and give you the results.

Good luck.

Dave Smith

No more parties this year(I hope) in Longview, WA.

Re: I wanted to go to The Big Island.

Doug Leite

>Aloha Dave,

It's Sat. morning and, since I don't have any hangover from the Margaritas at the party yesterday, I just removed the 3 pieces from the paper bags. There is no cracking but #1 is 1/8" ovel and it is turned long grain. #2 & 3 were both turned endgrain and are 1/16" oval. I would finish turn them now (it was my intention to give these away for x-mas) but a week ago, I received an order for 500 wine bottle stoppers and I have shipped the first 100 on Thurs. Goal this week is at least 150, so "I have got to git gittin" Did I say that right?

Just by coincidence, we do have a meeting on Sat. 1/22/04. It runs from 10 AM- 2 PM and it will be up at the Mountain View area which is about 15 miles from Hilo. Agenda is always the same 10-12is meeting and presentation of our bi-monthly challenge pieces and show & tell.12-12:30 is lunch and socializind and 12-2 is some sort of demo put on by some club member. It's cold up there(by our standards) but the guy has a nice shop and 4 lathes, a Nichols,Vicmarc (300 I think) an older Delta and a Jet mini. His name is Don Albrecht and he relocated here about 3 yrs. ago from North Pole Alaska. Great guy, he and his wife have gone up to the mount with me for Koa and we had a blast.

Elmer Adams is the guy you were referred to. He would surely have been agreeable to a "cold call", but put a lock on your wallet as he can make a silk purse out of a sows ear and convince you that you can't live without it. He turns very large pieces and has just completed a new "Studio". Yes it is probably a "Studio" as it is a building that is located away from his house and is built like a 2 br. house with the living/dining room area used as a display gallery and the area that would be a large garage houses his 4 lathes. The largest I built for him swings 48" over the bed plus he has 2 VB-36's and an 0neway 1018? Our club meets on usually the 2nd Sat. of the odd months at a diferent location each time, and our Nov. 2004 meeting was at Elmer's shop.

Talk to you later

Doug

Re: How much do they weigh?

Karl in IA

>Your graph is helpful. This is the type of info that needs to be assembled for different species (sizes, thickness) of woods. In the final analysis, your protocol may be a very simple, yet highly significant piece of work.

The simplest solution is the best.

Dave Smith, Longview, WA

>Hi Karl,

My intent is to remove the requirement to consult a chart or crunch information with a formula. By watching weight loss all the other variables shake out as not necessary. It is far easier for a turner to monitor weight periodically to see when the bowl is dry. By recording the date when the bowl starts drying if a bowl needs to be turned and it has been drying for two weeks it is probably dry. If it needs to be verified the weight can be monitored for several days to ensure the weight loss has stopped. The systems that are used now for drying bowls have no definitive method to ascertain when they are dry. I have heard various lengths of time but nobody has identified how they know the bowls are ready to turn. The alcohol soaking method provides an end point regardless of size or type.

There are a myriad of factors that can affect the length of time it takes a given piece of wood to dry. I considered a good many of them and looked for the simplest solution. One of my premises was that a system no matter how effective was not useful if it was too costly or too cumbersome. I believe I have refined about as simple a process as possible that is both inexpensive and all nearly fool proof.

Thanks for your input.

Dave Smith

A great day when friends visit my shop in Longview, WA.