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Knowledge You Can Build On — Est. 1998

Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

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Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

#1

Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

Mike Schwing from Md.

>OUCH! Burned the crap out of my thumb last evening when I for some unknown reason grabbed the business end of my gouge. Was shaping the exterior of a 100 pound end grain spalted oak log, removing up to probably 5/8" of material per pass, when I guess I needed to use my right hand for something. 1 second of thumb on gouge tip resulted in DROPPING THAT THING LIKE A HOT POTATO, and a bright red gouge imprint on my thumb down to the first knuckle.

Dunked it in ice water for about 10 minutes but I can plainly see it this morning.

Hard to believe that thing was that hot, but I do recall smelling smoke right before it - that was the sap burning on the gouge. Warm, sure, it gets warm all of the time, but wow that was extra super hot.

Don't know why I grabbed it by the tip, I think my mind was on the low power setting.

Re: Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

#2

I hear ya Mikey!

Dominic Greco in Richboro PA

>Mike,

When I'm turning dry hardwoods I tend to wear a set of leather biker or gardening gloves. You know, the kind with the tips cut off? The gloves protect me from getting blasted by heated chips (which is a common occurrence when turning large bowls out of hardwood). I've been scorched on more than one occasion by these chips,....or by picking up the gouge by the wrong end like you did!

BTW, since the gloves are form fitting, the chances of them getting snagged are very slim.

See ya around,

Dominic

Re: Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

#3

That is the reason......

TDaniel

>I wear gloves when turning dry wood but I am surprised that your tool got that hot with green wood. Since you mentioned sap I have to assume the wood was green. What kind of RPM were you running?

TD

Re: Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

#4

No Gloves !

Andrew Hilton

>Let me be brief ....

"BTW, since the gloves are form fitting, the chances of them getting snagged are very slim."

Slimmer? Yes. Safe? Ummmm, no. It's not as safe as you might hope. You're trading a relatively small injury of hot chips with a huge risk of getting that glove ... and the hand it's firmly attached to ... caught by the machinery and/or spinning wood and pulled into it. Just because you've not had an incident doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. And when it does ... we're not talking about minor burns or scrapes or even little cuts here. We're talking major injury sometimes resulting in the loss of fingers and use of hands. A turner just recently loss the use of his left hand for several months (at least) because of a glove accident. He's lucky, he said.

In just the past ~2 months, I've received over 35 reports from woodturners around the country about glove/turning injuries. This is no small or very isolated problem. ONLY 35 reports out of the 10,000 or so US turners, you say? Hey, those 35 are just the ones that have read my comments online about this topic (maybe 1,000 at most?) AND are willing to share their poor-choice experience of getting injured in this way (a VERY small percentage of people want to admit things like this). And that's just in the past 2 months!

I just completed 2 demos taking me up on my offer to show, firsthand, the dangers I'm talking about. Some things surprised me ... from both sides of the issue. But, the overall impression that both I and the attendees came away with was ... it's far easier to get the glove caught and do some major damage (to the camera filming it as well!) than I even imagined.

It's one thing to simply say "Don't do this" and nothing else as many people do with a great many things. I'm here to say that there ARE SAFE ALTERNATIVES to wearing a glove. If anyone is interested in these, please PLEASE contact me by email. I'll send you the article notes with several alternatives that you can try with your situation.

I realize that those of you that have been using gloves for woodturning aren't going to stop just because some voice in the crowd sticks his head up and says not to AND gives alternatives. I don't direct my comments regarding this dangerous practice to you necessarily. I just hope that those new turners that might be listening will be directed to safer and still effective practices that prevent catastrophic injury due to glove use.

And by the way, no, I have nothing against gloves personally. I actually use them ... just not around machinery.

Re: Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

#5

Re: That is the reason......

Mike Schwing from Md.

>I'd say it was about half way dry Terry, and maybe 700 rpms. Too big to spin it really fast, just fast enough to hog off lots of wood without causing ruts from moving the tool faster than the rotation. Dang that thing was hot. I too occasionally wear gloves with dry wood, but the chips coming off this were either not hitting me or they werent' so hot.

Re: Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

#6

Re: No Gloves !

Alan Tolchinsky

>Andrew, Thanks for the heads up. I guess this is like table saw kick back and using a ts without a splitter. Both the lathe and ts can bite you big time if you're not careful and take precautions. I was just thinking of putting on gloves the other day due to hot chips like I usually do. I think I'll wait on that. Please post any alternatives you may have; I'd be very interested. Thanks. Alan in Md.

Re: Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

#7

I disagree

TDaniel

>I wear a tight fitting pair of gloves without loose cuffs and I cannot see how they can be dangerous. I can see how a loose fitting pair would be equivalent to a loose fitting long sleeve shirt. I suppose you could turn naked so nothing could get caught in the lathe......ups, that wouldn't work either!

TD

Re: Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

#8

Re: No Gloves !

CJ

>I watched the AAW video on Rude Osolnik, and he wore gloves while turning.

Re: Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

#9

Re: I disagree

Wally Dickerman at Green Valley, Az.

>I wear snug fitting golf gloves when hot tools and chips calls for it. I feel perfectly safe in doing this as I see no way that they can get caught. When rough turning dry wood and the tool gets too hot to hold, the tendency is to hold it in an unfamiliar way. That in itself could result in an accident.

Wally

Re: Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

#10

I'm with you Wally

TDaniel

>

Re: Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

#11

Some thoughts on gloves

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>Personally, I hate when this topic comes up. Even more than sharpening, the issue of gloves often seems to degenerate into into posts expressive of great passion, with those opposing gloves tending to pronounce absolute prohibitions.

Have gloves been involved in, and at least partially responsible for injury? Of course they have. Many of the instances have been well documented, though the group reports tend to lump all kinds of gloves and fits into one, rather than examining the differential prevalence of injury of different sorts of gloves.

Have gloves been involved in, and at least partially repsonsible for avoidance or minimization of injury? Of course they have. Though like the absence of many things, there is less documentation of absence or avoidance of injury than occurence of injury.

So, arguments and evidence exists to support both sides if we make it an either/or issue (which is usually the way these discussions go). I (and I know I am not alone) prefer to weigh the information both for and against glove use and try to develop from that some personal guidelines.

First, what is it about gloves that tend to cause or increase injury? I think it comes down to four (not entirely independent) physical things and one psychological:

1. Loose material that can get caught up in rotating machinery and work pieces. Loose cuffs on gloves, excess materials at the end of fingers, gloves that are to wide, all can get captured, pulled in, and wrapped in moving parts, usually dragging the hand with them and trapping it in harms way.

2. Glove material with surface qualities that make them more likely to be caught and captured. More "sticky" material, latex and nitrile gloves for example, with their greater coefficient of friction, can turn a glancing contact into a solid grab. Almost problematic are loose weave knit glove backs (and sometime cuffs on both gloves and smocks) whose knit can be caught be a projection on the wood or machinery and pulled in.

3. Glove material that when captured will not tear away and instead cause the entire glove and hand to become involved. It is usually much better to have a chunk of your flesh torn away than have then entire hand captured.

4. Gloves that decrease tactile and propioceptive sensation, thus not allowing one to sense early contact, interfere with knowing exactly where the ends of their gloved hand end, etc. This mostly is associated with loose gloves that have fingers too long, but occurs to a lesser extent with almost any glove.

and 5, The psychological one, gloves can create comfort that results in an illusion of safety, resulting in one engaging in practices that are more dangerous.

But there is a flip side, that is, what is it about gloves that can increase your safety and comfort (the latter not as important as the former, but not without merit in its own right)? I think it primarily comes down to three things:

1. Gloves protect one from the hand injuries of burns, abrasions, and even piercings and lacerations that are associated with the turning of dry woods. occur when roughing out new woods, and can result from contact with a sharp edge when sanding or turning.

2. Gloves, by protecting one from the discomfort and injuries listed above, allows one to maintain proper tool positioning and technique that is often lost when trying to avoid them. As Wally and others have mentioned, trying to manipulate ones tools to avoid the sharp and/or hot chips and bark can make one vulnerable to other injuries (often orthopedic) from poor tool use.

3. Gloves, particularly with palm padding, can decrease vibration and compression injuries, ones that are often less obvious as they are cumulative, but can result in long term disability.

A longer discussion could refine and increase this list, but I think these are the major points, and the ones that have guided my decisions about glove use. Each person will weigh them differently, but here is what I have decided for myself: I believe that carefully chosen gloves are more safety equipment than a safety hazard for my circumstances. Others may rightfully determine otherwise, given their circumstances.

I use antivibration padded palm, fingerless, tightly knit back, tight fitting gloves that I obtained from the Duluth Trading Post. I wear them for roughing out, and for most shaping. I also wear them when sanding the inside of bowls and semi-open forms. I have become vulnerable to nerve compression injury and if I didn't have glove protection, I wouldn't be able to turn but for brief periods. I also find I am so bothered by hot dry woods coming down the flute (I don't have the calluses of a pro turner, nor care to), I end up in unsafe postures trying to avoid them--for me, gloves protect me from this. That my gloves are tight fitting and fingerless allows me to preserved full tactile and proprioceptive function. Most of the gloves are leather, but they have a thin, tightly woven back that is not vulnerable to being snagged. For me, this addresses the primary vulnerabilities of gloves, but I still don't discount the dangers that exist. Most of the equipment in my shop poses some danger of injury (tablesaw, air compressor, bandsaw, etc.) and it is knowledgable, cautious use and selection that limits my risks. Though gloves aren't a tool, I consider their use in the same way.

Re: Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

#12

Re: I disagree

Glenn Hodges

>Tight fitting glove wearer when I need to.

Re: Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

#13

Re: Some thoughts on gloves

Alan Tolchinsky

>Lyn, You said it all. I can relate to what you are saying about the "hot wood coming down the flute". I just experienced that today but couldn't find my gloves. I too reposition my hands to get away from the heated chips, not good. My gloves are the type with the fingers cut off, I think for bicycling.

I also have some type of nerve problem when I do bowls and my hand hurts across my palm. I was afraid to wear gloves when I read the above post but turning with out them would be a more painful experience. Thanks for your thorough response. Alan in Md.

Re: Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

#14

Thanks for this Lyn

Jennifer@Indy.USA

>

Re: Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

#15

Re: Some thoughts on gloves

Steve Worcester

>Oh Lyn, always the voice of reason.

proprioceptive! Thanks God for dictionary.com

-Steve Worcester

www.turningwood.com

Re: Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

#16

Keith Tompkins

Re: Some thoughts on gloves

Keith Tompkins

>Hi Lyn, I use the fingerless anti-vibration gloves occasionally also.

When I demo, my gouge gets so hot, by the end of the demo I have blisters. Of course, during a demo, you can't just stop because of that! I sometimes wear gloves for that reason, and switch tools allowing cool-off time.

One thing i've noticed is I have far less "feel" when wearing gloves, I am a better turner without them.

Re: Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

#17

Thank you Lyn

Dominic Greco in Richboro, PA

>

I really appreciate you taking the time to post this. I like the way that you mention both sides of the discussion and point out the benefits/detriments of both.

To be truthful, even before I read your reply I had planned on continuing to wear my fingerless, close fitting "turning" gloves when I feel the need to.

Thanks again,

Dominic

Re: Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

#18

Re: No Gloves !

Andrew Hilton

>Yes, very much the same idea as not using your splitter in the TS. Both are safety no-no's and both aren't going to "bite you" every time. That's what lulls people (a minority of people in both cases) into thinking that it's not really a safety issue I think. But, eventually, you'll know the pain of your poor choice.

I'll be sending you my article notes by email along with the others that emailed me requesting it. It'll be later this evening before I can respond to them all. It has some alternatives albeit in a bit of a jumbled format and no pictures. That'll be taken care of in the actual article later.

Re: Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

#19

Re: I disagree

Andrew Hilton

>"I wear a tight fitting pair of gloves without loose cuffs and I cannot see how they can be dangerous. I can see how a loose fitting pair would be equivalent to a loose fitting long sleeve shirt."

The tight fitting gloves/shirt/etc. are *better* but still not safe. It all comes down to accidents. If it weren't for accidents, the loose fitting equipment wouldn't be a problem either, would it? We don't *intentionally* try to get hurt ... it's an accident.

So, on to your question ... a tight fitting glove ... regardless of what it's made out of, CAN get caught if it's touched by the spinning material. Be it a sliver of wood, a bark inclusion, a rough edge or sharp point on a chuck jaw, or even the smooth surface of some chucks or highly sanded wood (in the case of latex, surgical, gloves). In one case, that glove may help protect you against minor abrasion or cuts from touching that sharp bowl lip and in the next second, it can tear or rip that leather glove and catch on it ... resulting in far far more than just an abrasion or cut.

IF you can guarantee that you're going to keep your hand well away from any moving part of the lathe or material attached to it, then you're fine. No problems. Nothing to worry about.

But, accidents happen. We forget. We slip. We push a little too hard. We need to get around just a tinnnnyyyy little bit more down near the foot of the bowl to make it look perfect. We don't realize we're hollowing so close to the rim. We make mistakes. THAT is why I worry. THAT is why I have the stand I have in glove use at the lathe. I am fallable. I am human. As a person that realizes these things, I make allowances, within reason, so that IF these things happen ... by accident ... I can still play piano afterward.

"I suppose you could turn naked so nothing could get caught in the lathe......ups, that wouldn't work either!"

Doesn't Ron Kent in Hawaii turn nearly naked? ha! Just some shorts I think. But, hey, that IS Hawaii !

Be safe.

Re: Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

#20

Re: I disagree

Andrew Hilton

>"I wear snug fitting golf gloves when hot tools and chips calls for it. I feel perfectly safe in doing this as I see no way that they can get caught."

Not sure what I could say to possibly sway your opinion then. If you can't see or understand the problem then I can't blame you for not seeing any reason to change. Some people can't see beyond their own experiences and that's fine. I hope you never have to understand it yourself.

"When rough turning dry wood and the tool gets too hot to hold, the tendency is to hold it in an unfamiliar way. That in itself could result in an accident"

Poor logic. We make adjustments all of the time in how we hold and use our tools. We certainly did it when we were learning and we do it after the 1,000th bowl too. We're not talking about holding a bowl gouge with our elbows here. Surely, you've used an underhand grip? Held the tool 2 inches further back for some reason? Twisted the tool slightly one way or another to get a better cut?

It's a matter of technique and control. Use the right tools ... use different tools. Be adaptive to be safe. Tool use and technique can do only so much, of course. It's not a complete answer but it might be enough to not HAVE to wear a hand restraint device (glove) that's unsafe. There's so many other things you can do without compromising your safety. Just explore the alternatives and be willing to try.

Re: Careful with those gouges! They get hot!

#21

Re: Some thoughts on gloves

Andrew Hilton

>"Personally, I hate when this topic comes up. Even more than sharpening, ..."

You equate an issue of safety to one of rubbing steel on rocks (sharpening)??? I don't think you're taking this topic very seriously. I feel a better comparison of topics would be one of respiratory protection or faceshield use. Those are actual safety issues and not ones of design or asthetics.

"... the issue of gloves often seems to degenerate into into posts expressive of great passion,"

Oh, yes, posts presenting great passion (although not flaming, baiting, personal attacks, and so on) are terrible things. Can't have those can we? Let's keep it all very sterile and easily digestible.

"with those opposing gloves tending to pronounce absolute prohibitions."

Hmmmm how many posts regarding this topic as of the past 3 months (to keep it easy to do a search on it to prove your assertion) in the various online forums proves your statement above? How many posts have there been saying something along the lines of "Don't do it" or "I don't wear gloves" and nothing else? Now, how many have there been on the opposite side? Basically, expressing "absolutes" but in the opposite direction? Prove it, Lynn.

You insinuate that those that don't agree with your viewpoint on the matter (and let's not try to confuse your attempt to provide lists on each side of the issue as being a moderator of the issue) are simply being single-minded and without understanding the problems turners have in regards to hot chips, splinters, vibration-induced nerve damage, and so on. Do you actually believe that those proclaiming that gloves should not be used have given no thought to these problems? Could it be that we've actually come to a different conclusion than you did? Based on our own experiences and those around us? Not discounting others experiences, mind you.

Not a bad job of outlining the basics of the problems with glove use. There's quite a bit more and in far more depth than you covered but that's not appropriate for this type of forum. It's covered in the article along with documentation and pictures coming later this winter or spring.

"But there is a flip side, that is, what is it about gloves that can increase your safety and comfort"

And right there is the major problem. All you see is the use of a GLOVE. You can't see beyond that? Or just have chosen not to? There are alternatives and safe ones to wearing a device that traps the hand and takes it wherever that glove goes (chuck, spindle, wood).

Given all of the negative aspects of glove use; and given the minor positive results that a glove can give (again, the glove isn't necessary to alleviate these problems!), you still come to the conclusion that the glove is your best safety equipment in YOUR situation. Interesting how you come to that. But, I will not discount your experience and your ability to make your own decisions. I will, however, respectfully and consistently disagree when given the chance.

I think it all boils down to one thing .... level and acceptance of risk. What you see as a level of risk is not what another person sees. What you accept as a a level of risk for yourself is not what the other person is willing to accept.

I and a vast majority of turners out there (although it's foolish to think that the majority is always right), thankfully, are not willing to risk that the glove WILL catch on a spinning piece of machinery or material. We, instead, will use alternatives to this terrible crutch (the glove) that will provide us with the same and better levels of protection without the safety problems of the glove.

As usual, Lynn, my best wishes ... but be safe.