NEED ADVICE ON SPALTING HACKBERRY

Check out "Russ' Corner

David Chung

>And look up the "Spalt your own wood" article. Never tried it myself, however. Have used Russ' information on several other things and what he says goes, as far as I am concerned.

Re: NEED ADVICE ON SPALTING HACKBERRY *LINK*

Andrew Hilton

>Hackberry does, indeed, spalt easily. The flipside of that is that IT SPALTS EASILY and can quickly become just too punky. Some of the best color I've gotten out of spalting has come from hackberry. Unfortunately, there's not much of a market for spalted hackberry so I don't do a bunch of it. As for turning it, it's alright. Nothing terribly special in its grain or figure or turning characteristics.

I've included a link to an article on spalting. I have to update it with a section on getting spalting to stop once you have it started. That's often the hardest part in some woods and in some areas. It gives no magical formulas for spalting. Spalting isn't magic. It's simple natural decay processes. In short, you need sufficient ranges of moisture, temperature and oxygen to support spalting (specific fungi growth).

Feel free to contact me directly with specific questions.


Spalting, A Fungus Amongus

Re: NEED ADVICE ON SPALTING HACKBERRY

keith zimmerman, Normal, IL

>I have found that hackberry spalts quite readily on its own if left outside and it doesn't take long.

I really like how hackberry looks when spalted. The wood has a medium grey color the just glows when buffed. Unfortunately, I don't have an example to attach.

Just my $.02.

keithz

Re: NEED ADVICE ON SPALTING HACKBERRY

Gary Evans, Tallassee, TN

>Like Keith, I would just cut the wood up into manageable pieces and leave it outside. I have spalted quite a bit of Hackberry and have left it setting up to 2 years without it becoming too punky to use, but I had it stacked up off the ground with no cover except shade from the surrounding trees. Understand that I am inherently patient and don't see any point in rushing a natural process like spalt. Life's too short to get in too much of a hurry.

I do have to disagree about spalt being a part of the rotting process. My understanding is that the fungi which produce spalt are not the same fungi which produce rot. Of course both types can be and often are present at the same time in the same piece of wood.

Also, I think if you go ahead and turn some of the crotch pieces, you will find that it does have remarkable grain characteristics. Hackberry is kin to the elms, with their interlocking grain, so it can display the same type of flame grain that you will find in elm.

Bear in mind, though, that I am talking about southern Hackberry. It appears to be a different species from what is grown up north. I'm not familiar with the northern wood at all.

Gary

Re: NEED ADVICE ON SPALTING HACKBERRY

dick mcneill

>This post does not answer your question but it should interest anyone with a lot of Hackberry. When green Hackberry is cut & imersed in liquid dye overnight the cells retain the color & when turned is beatiful, especially the end grain.

Re: NEED ADVICE ON SPALTING HACKBERRY

Steve Worcester

>While it may not be the same fungus that rots the wood, the ideal environment grows both.

You can simple wrap it tightly in plastic (clear) and let nature do the rest. At anytime you can open it up to check the progress. I use the same plastic used for shrink wrapping pallets. By being tight, you increase the humidiy and promote moisture directly on the wood, where as inside a loose bag, the moisture would have to fall on the wood (or something unscientific like that.)

Re: NEED ADVICE ON SPALTING HACKBERRY

Ric

>Yes, Life is Short. That why I am in a hurry. :)

Re: NEED ADVICE ON SPALTING HACKBERRY

Andrew Hilton

>"I do have to disagree about spalt being a part of the rotting process. My understanding is that the fungi which produce spalt are not the same fungi which produce rot. Of course both types can be and often are present at the same time in the same piece of wood."

"Spalting" is what's called, in the business, as White Rot. We'll also lump in some Blue Stains with Spalting sometimes too but that's a different story. You'll see the fungi associated with "spalting" called White Rot Fungi but that's obviously not the scientific term. There's also Brown Rot. Brown rot is far more aggressive in it's decay of wood. You can, and often do, have multiple types of wood coloration and rot working in the same patch of wood at the same time.

Both White Rot and Brown Rot are decay processes of wood. They have specific organisms that are part of their mechanisms as well as specific characteristics that distinguishes each type of rot. But, they are still a decay or rotting process of wood.

Now, many types of wood coloration is NOT a decay process of wood. For instance, the process that makes Ambrosia Maple (among other species) is not nor is the flame in Boxelder. Mineral stain and blue stain isn't part of the decay process of wood either. Those types of wood coloration won't harm the surrounding wood. It'll still be stable IF only that coloration type is present. However, true spalting/white rot does harm the structure of the wood itself just as brown rot.

Look it up if you don't believe me. A simple Google search on "White Rot" and/or "Wood Decay" will do it. There are plenty of resources online and in numerous Department of Forestry / Conservation agencies in almost every state on this topic. The national Forest Products Laboratory has numerous articles on this.

The term "Spalting" is often used by people as describing anything from Mineral Stain, Blue Stain, the flame in Boxelder, to actual White Rot and even bug infestation and other wood coloration types. Thus, it's quite common to confuse what people are actually talking about.

Re: NEED ADVICE ON SPALTING HACKBERRY

Gary Evans, Tallassee, TN

>One of my pet peeves about our society, Ric. Everyone is in such a hurry that we don't take time to enjoy every moment to its fullest. The result: the same short lifespan with less happiness and fullfillment.

My two cents worth of philosophy.

Gry

Re: NEED ADVICE ON SPALTING HACKBERRY

Gary Evans, Tallassee, TN

>Hi Andrew,

White Rot is what I'm talking about when I talk about spalt. What I was referring to is that you can get good coloration on some woods such as hackberry or maple without a marked deterioration of the wood fiber if you catch it early enough. I suppose laboratory tests might show differences, but using the chainsaw and the lathe, it's hard to tell that the wood is softer.

Also, I think I first got the idea that spalting is a separate process than rot from Dave Barriger, who teaches Biology, as well as being an accomplished turner. As I recall, his justification for his opinion is the lack of fiber breakdown in the spalting process.

Anyway, I do appreciate your comments.

Gary

Re: NEED ADVICE ON SPALTING HACKBERRY

Andrew Hilton

>"What I was referring to is that you can get good coloration on some woods such as hackberry or maple without a marked deterioration of the wood fiber if you catch it early enough. I suppose laboratory tests might show differences, but using the chainsaw and the lathe, it's hard to tell that the wood is softer."

The key, as you said, is to catch it early enough but yet get the coloration and lines that you want. That's the hard part of my business in spalting. It's a balancing act and that's where I get a lot of my turning wood ... when it's gone too far and you get into the mushy wood.

"Also, I think I first got the idea that spalting is a separate process than rot from Dave Barriger, who teaches Biology, as well as being an accomplished turner. As I recall, his justification for his opinion is the lack of fiber breakdown in the spalting process."

A teacher of *what* biology? Animal? Plant? Huge differences there.

There are many types of White Rot fungi. The specific fungi responsible for "spalting" are part of that group. White Rot fungi, as a group, mainly decompose lignin but also degrade and decompose constituents of cellulose, etc. as well. The fact that these fungi first go after the lignin, often leaves the wood looking bleached (ie White) until a significant amount of the cellulose,etc. is decomposed as well. Given enough time, these fungi will almost completely degrade and decompose the wood. The structure of the wood is left intact for awhile but the lack of lignin causes a lot of the strength of the wood to be gone. Lignin is the woods' strength. It's binder. With that gone or degraded, it's like having a house of cards.... you have the structure but little strength or binding together.

On the other hand, the fungi associated with Brown Rot first and pretty much only decompose the cellulose in wood. They can *change* the lignin but don't really decompose it thus leaving it behind. Lignin has a brownish coloration and that's where you get the brown in Brown Rot. The fact that these fungi aggressively attack the cellulose first, causes significant degrade quickly. The degrade is really fast when compared to the action of the White Rot fungi. Now, you have the binder (or glue) for the wood but little structure left behind for the lignin to hold anything together. Goo!

So, if you have predominately White Rot happening, you are likely to have spalting. And you have some time before *significant* degrade of the cellulose, etc. Not a whole lot of time, but hopefully enough in order to get some good coloration where you want it. When or If Brown Rot sets in, you have little time comparatively. With only Brown Rot fungi, you'll not get "spalting" although you may get some other associated wood coloration. You'll get mush quickly compared to what time you have with White Rot.

Re: NEED ADVICE ON SPALTING HACKBERRY

Gary Evans, Tallassee, TN

>Hi Andrew,

Sorry about that. A sloppy reference doesn't help much. Dave Barriger actually teaches botany.

I appreciate your additional information regarding the action of the various fungi. It just doesn't seem lately like I have much time available to do web searching, even when I have a great interest in the subject.

Thanks again,

Gary