Does this make me an apostate?

Re: Does this make me an apostate?

Gary Evans, Tallassee, TN

>Hey Bill,

It sounds like a good economic opportunity for you. As far as disappointing the purists, since this guy is mass producing all the other parts of his tables, then I don't see a problem with mass producing the legs. If the rest of the table was built by hand, then it would be more important to also produce the legs that way.

Gary

Re: Does this make me an apostate?

Mike Schwing from Md.

>Bill, you have already learned the things you are suggesting that others learn rather than go the duplictor route. Were you a beginner and purchasing this kind of equipment, the story would be different. However, we know you have the skills to do what it is you are seeking to automate, so for this, the matter is only the time savings. Now put this issue to bed and get on with more stories about giggly young girls in a barn please.....

Re: Does this make me an apostate?

Chuck Ludwigsen

>Bill,

I would much rather he outsource the work to you and you cascade the economic effect down with the purchase of the new lathe than to have the work farmed out beyond US borders.

Those tables will carry "Made in the USA" labels and I'll know who made the legs!! When you get rolling with them, let us know the table manufacturer so we know who to support!

Chuck in Memphis, TN.

Re: Does this make me an apostate?

Raymond Overman

>/begin sarcasm/

Thanks for selling out to the man Bill. Now us beginners will think that it's ok to just run out and spend some money to do the job instead of tried and true methods of craftsmanship. With a single purchase the artisan of days gone by just withers away. I'm very dissapointed. When you turn that machine on, I bet you feel ashamed of yourself. Next thing you know, you'll be opening up production south of the border. It's pure un-American.

/end sarcasm/

Is that enough of the whip or do you want some more?

Just think of it this way. By using the duplicator lathe, you provide the customer what they want (business decision) and provide yourself with more time to get back to the craftsman/artisan stuff (personal satisfaction) and you get paid.

Both of you are happy in the end.

Good luck.

Raymond Overman

Yes it does

Ellis Walentine

>...but the world has enough starving artists. Go ahead and make some dough when opportunity knocks, and use the proceeds to further your art.

Good luck,

Ellis

Re: Does this make me an apostate?

John Lucas

>Bill

I think it is a good move but would be really interested in your response after you use it awhile. Ideally it would work to have a fairly non skilled employee doing this part so you can concentrate on other areas.

My own experience with a copy attachment meant that I spent a lot more time sanding and negated part of the savings. However I wasn't producing hundreds of items and it was a cheap tool.

I have visited factories where the copy attachments they were using produced very clean cuts. these were very expensive machines.

Good luck on the order.

Makes sense to me

Ben Aragon

>Bill,

I�m not an expert like your self, but I do know a duplicator can�t do the quality of work you can by hand. That being said, I also have a friend that is a professional turner, he thought me to turn and still is. He makes his living, mostly turning for furniture and architectural turning as well as teaching. It just so happens his name is Bill also. He has a duplicator, and just like you he bought it because of the quantities he has to put out the door. What he has done is to use the duplicator to rough turn the piece to 90% complete and then hand finish the piece with a gouge and skew. He likes doing it this way because the duplicator works very fast and the parts are all the same. Also by hand finishing the parts he hasn�t lost the quality he is known for. Like your self he was an accomplished turner before he bought the duplicator.

One nice thing about hand finish turning the roughed out pieces is that you get a lot of practice at beads, coves, and pummels, ect. Not that you need it. Bill has given me some of the roughed out parts that he rejected and by me finishing them in my shop, it has really helped my finish turning skills. Its always hard to start turning and this may be another teaching tool to help intermediate to beginner turners. I only learn for repetition and I need allot of repetition. I have made some tables and chairs for my wife and I turned all the legs by hand. I know Bill�s instructions on hand turning from a blank as well as practicing my finishing on his rejected rough outs made it all possible. I only learn from doing and so far I really enjoy turning.

Best Wishes,

Ben

First film, now copy machines, is a CNC far behind

RonZ

>It doesn't make you an apostate, just smart. It sure beats what I had to do last week to put bread on the table...turn down four sqare columns to 10" diameter for table pillars. I used a 1 1/4 roughing gouge, Alan Lacer large skew, sandpaper....well I hope to post the results I archived but it wasn't pretty.

Not at all..

Russ

>Bill,

Hey, it's all about making money, and spindle turning is the best place for a woodturner to do that.

Just recognize that there are some things that a copier will do better and faster, and other things that it cannot do well at all. What it will do is remove a lot of wood very fast. What it won't do well is make a sharp definition in the grooves between multiple beads; or sharp corners like you would want at the edges of a cove; it doesn't make right angle cuts; they don't do well with pommels cuts; and the finish may require more sanding than you are used to. There are also some forms that are not easily adaptable to copying without multiple set-ups, things like Queen Anne table legs, and you may find it faster to just do them by hand.

((A hint on a Queen Anne is to separate them into two (2) pieces at the Pommel, turn them separately, and glue them together afterwards.))

Whether any of these differences are important will depend on the quality of turning you are looking for.Sometimes you will be able to design around them. Other times, you can use a combination of copying and hand work, with the automatic lathe doing the heavy lifting, and your doing the detail work by hand. Most people get into trouble when they expect the copier to do everything.

And you are getting a lathe that will do the "heavy lifting" very well.

Good luck with your venture.

I got bad news for you.

Jack Diemer

>Minimax's are just like potato chips. You can't have just one.

Heretic!!!! UnBeliever!!!

Mark Kauder, Phenix City, AL

>Spawn of Satan.

Ok - a little over the top.

No, I think it is good. I happened to see the results of the Vega 1553 this last month at the IWF show, and was pleasently surprised and the quality (Russ's exceptions noted).

Would be interested to know what ones you compared and pros and cons of them. (The Vega is currently Half a grand less, has free shipping, and allows Outboard turning, heheheh)

I wish you well in your satanic endevor. |:)

Mark

He's a Witch!!!

John in 'rural' Festus, MO

>I'd make the same decision, Bill. But if you start using a router to turn a bowl, we never knew you ;)

John

I hate to tell you what your next step will be....

Ron in Drums PA

>I hate to tell you what your next step will be, but...

1) Hiring another person to help keep up with production.

2) Which means you'll have to deal with workmen comp, unemployment insurance, social security tax and so on.

3) Before you know it you'll need a bigger space so you'll move into a different barn and to pay for the added cost for the space you'll need to hire anther person.

4) Which means you'll have to start with some decent benefits.

5) Which means you'll need a another Mimi max T-124 to help pay for those benefits

6) Which means you'll have to increase production

7) Which means you'll start over at number one.

Now look what you got yourself into. . . . Have fun and Good Luck!

I wouldn't call you that to your face.

Dave Smith, Longview, WA

>Hi Bill,

I will still look up to you even after you get the copy machine. It makes economic sense to purchase the machine if you have a long term contract that will pay for it. Besides, now your daughters will have an opportunity to work their way through college by feeding the duplicator machine.

Dave Smith

Fond memories of shoo fly pie in Longview, WA.

No, witches are FEMALE !

Fred in NC

>hehe, Bill...

I wish a big blessing in your venture!

Fred

Burn him!!

Mike Schwing from Md.

>

Re: He's a Witch!!!

Andy in Raleigh

><>

A router? No, never! A biscuit joiner blade in grinder is the tool for that job...

I haven't had the pleasure of meeting Bill, but I enjoy his posts and appreciate his perspective. This is a good business decision.

Re: Not sure

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In Jersey

>What did the blood test show?

|;-}

Wouldn't your Legacy suffice?

John Trant (Baltimore/DC area)

>Hi Bill,

You already have one of of the Legacy Ornamental Mills. Although it may be slower than the Mini-Max, would it not suffice to do the repeatitive work without buying a new tool?

John

Would you have to sign all of them?

steve antonucci in NW New Jersey

>Or just the originals? :-)

Maybe a photocopy of your signature with the copies...

As long as you and your customer both know what is being "sold", I think you are clear. Should the customer go on to use your machine made parts in a "man made" object, that's on them, not you.

Matthew Burak (www.tablelegs.com) supplied me with my legs for my dining table (before I started turning). Good place to look for pricing and such.

Godd luck with it.

Steve

Re: Does this make me an apostate?

Bill Grumbine, Kutztown PA

>Wow, look at all the responses! I looked pretty hard at this machine, and there are some really nice features. Probably close to the top if not No. 1 is the traveling steady that follows the roughing knife as the blank is roughed to a particular size. Mini Max does not offer a huge number of collars for this rest, but I have a friend who is going to help me out with that.

Sanding. It would need to be done anyway, since the vast majority of pieces will either be stained or painted. According to what I have learned, people can easily start sanding at 120, which is where I usually start sanding anyway. Finish sanding means either 150 or 220, again because of paint or stain. If the pieces are sanded to too high a grit, then they will not take stain like they should, and with paint, most paint is in the 120 grit range of smooth anyway.

Mini Max has apparently come up with a new cutter for the finish cutter that is very close to the roughing cutter in its design, which allows for a fairly smooth surface. I have been told by a couple of owners that it does not do details under 1/8" very well, and that is where hand and eye skills will still be needed.

Ron, I looked at a couple of semi auto machines, and CNC is probably way behind. The MM comes in at $3500. Next up the line is a Hapfo for only about $28,000!

Russ, I have always agreed with you regarding spindle turning, and this machine I hope will let me jump to a new level while still having time to do some natural edged bowls once in a while.

Jack, this will be my second Mini Max, although I do not even have the first one yet! I put money down on a CU 300 Smart last November to be picked up at the Ft Washington show this November. One of the reasons I made this move was to make better use of space in my shop. Now all the space I was going to save is going to be taken up with another lathe!

Mark, I was able to get free shipping as well, as I asked the kind folks at Mini Max to stick it on the truck for Ft Washington. Not only will it ship for free, but they will have it cleaned up from all the goop and reasonably set up as well. As far as the Vega goes, I was not able to find a lot of info about it. I did look at some sites with pictures, but they were hard to see, and as far as I could tell, the Vega does not sport the traveling steady.

Ron, I hope I never get to another employee. That would make life very rough indeed. I'll just make the girls stay at home!

John, the Legacy is a good machine for what it does - ornamental work, but it is not robust enough to do the volume I am looking at. I have a friend who lives close by who has turned more pieces on his Legacy than all the rest of Legacy owners in the world combined (I do not exaggerate here), and after seeing what he went through to accomplish that, I would not try to, shall we say, duplicate his efforts. He uses a combination of hand turning and Legacy work, but he needs lots of extra parts, the motor drive, which is almost $1000 by itself, and he spends a lot of time doing it. I can see the Legacy getting more use in conjunction with this machine, but that remains an unknown quantity.

Thanks for all the comments and well wishes, even you guys who are ready to burn me at a custom turned stake! ;-) Like I say, pictures will come when the machine does.

Bill

Re: Not at all..

Keith Tompkins

>Russ, You pretty much covered what I was thinking. While a part is still on the lathe, the details can be done by hand, and a skew over long sections and beads will speed sanding.

I think this posting is related to the previous post....can an artist sell to two different markets? I think this is one way to do it.

It makes you a CONVERT, brother :-)

Clem Wixted Jonesboro, AR

>

Nope

Bob Hackett

>But owning a hydraulic back knife lathe that loads from a hopper will make you one.

Glad to hear things are coming together for you Bill.It couldn`t happen to a nicer,more deserving guy.

Mainely,Bob