Artistic Pricing Question? OT kinda

Re: Artistic Pricing Question? OT kinda

Fred in NC

>Raymond:

Considering the time spent in sales and promotion, I think a full time turner could spend about 30 hrs per week actually producing sellable items. This places an hour's work at about $40.

I did not figure out paid vacation either!

Considering the cost of materials, you will need to complete 3 $20. pens per hour ! That is, provided you find a market for them.

Maybe others can enlighten us about how they go about making a living as full time turners... it is a mystery to me.

Best regards,

Fred in NC.

Re: Artistic Pricing Question? OT kinda

Peter Teubel

>Raymond Wrote:

"Is anyone making their entire living out of turning or are they starving artists?"

========================================

I could be wrong but I don't think anyone in the woodturning community is making their living ENTIRELY from turning artistic product. The successful ones also teach, demonstrate, write books/articles, produce videos, sell equipment/supplies, have a working spouse, draw a pension, or do architectural turning (did I miss anything?).

Re: Artistic Pricing Question? OT kinda

Dinyar Chavda

>Raymond:

From what I can tell by talking to professional turners, there are very few who make a living SOLELY on the basis of what they sell (Bill Hunter comes to mind as someone who does).

Most of the others do one or more of the following in addition to selling their turnings:

1. Give lessons

2. Do demos, either for clubs or for retailers

3. Sell tools and supplies, either ones they have designed or ones they endorse

4. Write books, make videos

5. Give tennis lessons (in the case of Vic Wood!) or do something else that is not related to the craft.

I guess you have to pay the price for doing something that you love!

Dinyar

Re: Artistic Pricing Question? OT kinda

John Lucas

>Peter

I agree. I did the same kind of figures Raymond ran only looked a little harder at the time needed for promotion etc. Even trying a much more moderate salary of $20K (starving artist). Then I figured you'd have to actually sell more like $60K to to get the $20. Then you figure 6 days a week minimum with only 4 spent actually producing work.

Just for the heck of it I used just my hand mirrors and did not include a variety of work. I came to 50 mirrors a month that needed to be sold. How many you'd have to make and market to actually sell 50 a month I couldn't figure.

I've decided to find a rich women.

Re: Artistic Pricing Question? OT kinda

Chuck Ludwigsen

>..."I've decided to find a rich women. "

Plural??????

;-)

Re: Artistic Pricing Question? OT kinda

Bill Grumbine, Kutztown PA

>Hi Raymond

Like many professional woodworkers, I can say my wife has a good job. There is no shame in that as far as I am concerned. I do a lot of bowls, although not as many as some. I used to sell pens, and not to belittle anyone, but 3 pens an hour was a snail's pace for me. Back in the day I was doing 10 pens an hour complete. I did my own time studies. I was selling the cheapest at $25.00 a pen, and the most expensive for $90.00/pen, and I was selling them faster than I could make them. But now there are so many people making pens it is hard to get a good price, and besides, I got sick of making them.

I also build expensive custom furniture, teach, and I am hoping to make a pile of money off my soon to be released DVD, but I have not yet picked out the company jet. I am also in the final stages of a deal to produce all the turned legs for a furniture company local to me. The first few months of revenue will pay for some equipment designed to do that job, but once that is past, the rest, as they say, is gravy. This will also allow me to solicit some other types of jobs which I have avoided in the past because of the repetitious nature of the work.

As far as the art pricing goes, I was talking with Ellis about this the other day while we consumed hot dogs at a local hot dog emporium. It is all well and good to get to the point where you are selling pieces for four figures, but it is a one way street. The higher you go, the more rarified the customer base, and you cannot return to the mundane craft show circuits. I am content to be mildly expensive, at least for the time being. Besides, I don't really count myself as an artist. I am a craftsman who occasionally has an artistic thought. ;-)

Bill

PS If you have ever seen a picture of me, you will see that I am a long way off from starving.

Re: Artistic Pricing Question? OT kinda

Keith Tompkins

>Hi Raymond,

I think name recognition plays a factor in pricing our pieces. The better known turners are able to command higher prices for their work.

Personally, I do demos and seminars in order to get my name out there. It has really helped, in fact; I have to be careful not to over-schedule, and end up with NO life.

The demos have lead to turners asking for lessons, for which I charge $40.00 per hour. The demos have also lead to a teaching position at a well known craft center. I cannot quit my day job, but the extra cash helps a great deal.

I can't count on sales for income, it is too sporadic. However, I consider a sale a good bonus, and helps support the addiction er, hobby. I spent a decade in my own woodworking business before I burnt out....not sure I want to do it again full time.

Re: Artistic Pricing Question? OT kinda

Keith Tompkins

>Hi Bill, it's OK....you're an artist. LOL You don't think it's possible to sell high end pieces, and then sell more reasonably priced articles at craft shows? It's something I was thinking about. I would like your thoughts on the subject.

Re: Artistic Pricing Question? OT kinda

Bill Grumbine, Kutztown PA

>Hi Keith

I think there is a range that we can move within, but once we get into the real high end stuff, people are paying a lot more for our name than the wood. Right now I am selling bowls that are functional for $10.00 - $15.00 per inch. I am selling "art" pieces for about $30.00 per inch. A good friend of mine who is on the very high craft show circuit just sort of shakes his head at the art prices I am getting, especially since I am not in any sort of gallery or other venue. This is all from people coming to some fairly modest shows, or just showing up in the shop! Some of the time it comes from me riding around with a pile of bowls in the back seat of the truck! It is amazing how often I will take them into a doctor's office or something similar, and someone will point out two or three and say, give me those, without asking for the total first.

But, if I go selling pieces for $1000 or better, and then try to sell a salad bowl for $150.00, someone is going to catch me and cry foul. Once a turning gets to a certain price point, people are paying for the privilege of that person's name on it as much or even more so than piece itself. If that person is selling other things with their name on it for lots less, it cheapens the value of their name, which they have worked so hard to create. At least, that is my perspective on it.

When we get into the art end of it, we may do so as an expression of our thoughts and feelings, but others are buying the brand of our name. It is sort of like paying $200.00 for a shirt with some designer's name on it vs the same shirt without the name for $10.00 at Walmart. It is all in the name for the buyer, and if they pay $200.00 for the designer name and then find it for $10.00 somewhere else (with the name on it!), there is going to be trouble for someone.

Bill

Now I know who flooded the pen market {8>)

Russ

>

Re: Artistic Pricing Question? OT kinda

Mike Schwing from Md.

>I made sure that Mrs. Schwingding read this entire thread, and then told her she needed to make more money if she wanted me to fufill HER dream of being married to a well known artist.

I REALLY appreciated this thread. The only thing I can add to it is that I recently started selling work in the $100 range. It almost immediately jumped up to $500 for a few pieces, and this week I sold my first 4 figure piece. I have absolutely no idea how that happened, but I hope it happens some more. I think it is a combination of me being a shameless self promoter and having found a benefactor who is taking a gamble that my work will be well known some day. (hope he's right)

I have no intention of ever trying to make this a full time job, as I wind up hating all of my full time jobs, and that would be a darned shame.

Woodworking and the pursuit of happiness

Sam Simpson

>Hi Y'all,

Raymond, it is certainly possible for an individual to produce enough work to be self supporting. The sales side of the business is always the tough part. Bill has some great insight into the foibles of that.

But the ability to produce and sell your wares is not the whole story. It is hard, messy, grueling work to make wood products. Success is often a dreaded accomplishment.

Others have pointed out how many successful turners are doing other things. Selling tools and teaching for example. I wonder how many of them are including the other activities as a way of balancing their success?

Personally I have a very successful operation, but I would love to take time out to teach or sell tools. If only I could find the time between client meetings, drafting, business management, training staff and oh yeah, actual woodwork.

Today I started work on two new cabinets. I started, as always, convinced these would be the best things I had ever made. But after a day of turning bun feet, planing boards, cutting M&T's, gluing frames and running molding, I arrive home with sawdust in my hair and sticking to my sweat soaked body.

Oh sure, it can seem very glamorous when you are in a suit and tie selling at a fair or chatting with a client. But making a living out of making wooden objects is going to be a slog, no matter how successful you are.

I am reminded of passages I recently read in my studies of the early American Furniture makers. The inventories of the cabinet makers and their shops where surprising. Even the most accomplished among them had greater inventories in farm stock than in woodworking tools, lumber and hardware. All of the successful ones appear to have been spending 3/5ths of their time in other pursuits. What is more, it was clearly not necessary for them to do so. Each had a compliment of slaves and more business than they could ever attend to. So it would seem that the ability to pursue a wide variety of interests is a sign of success and only the lowly apprentice or slave was bound to produce without the chance of a change in pace.

So you see, my own measure of success is not in my ability to find, produce and get paid for enough work to be a full time woodworker. My measure of success will be when I can stop doing it.

Regards Sam Simpson.

Thank you

Raymond Overman

>Thank you all for your responses. I want to clarify that my goal in this was not to figure out if I could become a professional woodturner but to get an understanding of how others make that work.

I definitely would rather afford my wife the ability to stay at home with my daughter than me pursuing a career that worked me 80 hours a week and made me less than what I'm bringing home now but allowed me to be in my shop all the time. If my side business/hobby allows me to purchase a new tool occasionally, the materials to build more products and supplements the allowance my wife gives me each month, I'm happy. I'm also still ahead of those guys who pursue golf. (not that there's anything wrong with that) I

Maybe in 50 years when I'm 83 and the government allows me to retire with my social security benefits, I can make turning my job to make ends meet. Until then, I'll stick to the three or four hours a week, my web site, and reasonable pricing.

By the way Bill Grumbine, I've seen your picture. As soon as you get that DVD out, I'm going to have to buy one so that you don't waste away.

Thanks again everyone.

Raymond Overman

http://www.overmanshop.com

Why stop at one when you can have seven?

Raymond Overman

>

Re: Artistic Pricing Question? OT kinda

Peter Teubel

>I've been keeping an informal tally of my customers and the VAST MAJORITY are women (I'm very bad at guessing age so I won't even go there). Of those women, most are buying it for a gift (wedding present being the most popular).

Interesting note: I sell a wide variety of items at shows including some pens. I had this nice Euro pen made from Tulipwood which I had laser engraved with "Custom Wood Pens by Peter Teubel". It was the "sign" on my display, so to speak. Someone actually wanted to buy it! So of couse, I resorted to the #1 rule of retail, "The customer is always right", and sold it to her. I just wish I put my (yet to be built) web address on it for free advertising!

Re: Artistic Pricing Question? All Relative...

Ruth

>What we all must keep in mind is "how much" is totally relative to how and where you live. Quoting $$ per hour or item can be deceiving; for instance cost of electricity to run machinery varies with location. I've never paid more than $35 mo. for elec. which is house and shop and my lifestyle is simple so what others might consider a good yearly salary would probably support me quite nicely for 3 years!

Just one woman's opinion. : )

Ruth

Are you married?

TDaniel

>Inquiring minds want to know.

TD lol

Re: Are you married?

John Lucas

>Terry

She's good looking as well as talented and apparently lives on my kind of budget. John

Location

Fred in NC

>Yes, location affects the cost of living, and of course the cost of the finished work. Now if you can produce in your area, and sell in better markets, you will make a better profit.

Fred

Ruth, can you send us a picture of

TDaniel

>your lathe?

Re: Are you married?

Ruth

>John, THANK you for the compliment! Glad to know you can relate to my kind of budget. : )

Re: Are you married?

Ruth

>TD,

I am very happily divorced (82 years now!), it's the only way not to have to cook.

Re: Are you married?

Don Henthorn

>Ruth, tell my wife that. I have been doing the cooking for twenty years and my wife is a good cook. Of course sitting around like she does,she has difficulty standing for long enough to cook anything. But she can't turn like you can either.

82 Years????

Russ

>