WoodCentral Forums

Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge

The Effect of Good Form (long)

Posts

The Effect of Good Form (long)

#1

The Effect of Good Form (long)

Bill Grumbine, Kutztown PA

>Perhaps I should have titled this "an effect", or "one effect" of good form for there are many. However, I want to address one, and hopefully generate some discussion on this. Today I did something that not many of us do in the turning world. I turned back the clock and turned a beginner bowl - a HUGE beginner bowl. I did not turn it because I wanted to, but rather for a specific commission for a customer.

There is a story to this. Late last year, I had a customer come to my shop to inspect my bowls. He and his wife needed a new salad bowl, having literally worn theirs out over the past 20 years. He had the old bowl with him, along with his tape measure. He looked at all of my best work, and even took the tape to some roughouts sitting on the counter. The two of them pronounced everything unsatisfactory!

When I asked why, he went out to his car and retrieved their current bowl. It was a flat bottomed straight sided bowl of the shape that I call beginner, having seen so many pass through my shop over the years as a teacher.

Now, if you are reading this and are currently turning these kind of bowls, please do not take offense. We all start out as beginners, and there is no shame in being one, or turning bowls like this. I learned some things that certainly shed some light for me, and hopefully with this thread (if it turns into a thread) will help all of us understand some of the problems we face and how design can affect more than one aspect.

Back to my customer. He produced their current salad bowl, and told me they wanted one exactly like it, only bigger. He gave me some very specific dimensions to match, and that was that. I was not real enthusiastic about doing this, but a job is a job. So I made the bowl.

As I was turning this thing, I could not help but notice that I was having a terrible time with getting a smooth surface. No matter what I tried, I could not get a good cut, and I was reduced to grinding away with sandpaper. Even then, after lots and lots of time sanding, I was still not satisfied with the surface. I attributed it to a lousy day, wild grain, whatever. Personal experience reinforced that perception. The pieces before and the pieces after this bowl all cut and sanded in the manner to which I had become accustomed.

I delivered the bowl, and was happy to be done with it. I even told SWMBO that I was glad to never have to ever deal with one like that again. Well I was wrong. My customer liked it so much he commissioned another one just like it a few months later. So, I roughed out another and put it aside to dry. I finished turned it today.

As I was turning, I noticed the very same phenomena taking place. No matter what I tried, I could not get the smooth surface I was used to getting. This after recently turning that locust burl wing bowl and having it go great! Once again I was reduced to the abrasive gouge (sandpaper for you neophytes), and once again I was not satisfied with the surface I was getting. Now, this was the same species, but it was a different tree with different characteristics. It did not have the wild swirly grain of the previous bowl. In fact, it is pretty plain. But I still have a surface that with all my cutting tricks and all my sandpaper was still not what I could wish.

I began to consider the thing closely, and after a little bit of thought and observation, I come now to my very lengthy point. I think that one of the reasons beginners have such trouble is that they are still learning technique for both tools and sanding, but I think that just as important are the forms we turn. The basic beginner bowl is straight sided and flat bottomed. As we improve our techniques for cutting, we (hopefully) improve the forms we produce. I think that the improvement in form lends itself to better surfaces because of the nature of the wood, and not solely because of our improved technique. This is a theory, but one based on observation of my own experience. Is there anyone who has managed to read this far who can verify this, or who would care to give it a try? I would like to hear other thoughts and opinions on this subject, as I find it a fascinating concept.

Bill

Re: The Effect of Good Form (long)

#2

Re: The Effect of Good Form (long)

Mike Schwing from Md.

>Bill, thanks for sharing that! As my beginner days go back only a short while, I will be happy to turn a "beginner bowl" for your experiment. I can already tell you that I expect to find similar results as you have. Flat sided, flat bottom bowls don't lend themselves to nice clean grain cuts, at least in my experience, as an (someone elses words) advanced newbie.

Re: The Effect of Good Form (long)

#3

Re: The Effect of Good Form (long)

Stuart Johnson

>Bill, This is a long shot but do you by any chance have a photo of the beginners bowl? I think it would be very instructive if you were able to show side by side of it along with a good one.

Stuart Johnson

Red Oak, Texas

Re: The Effect of Good Form (long)

#4

Re: The Effect of Good Form (long)

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Very interesting read Bill, as usual. I think your observations are spot on, for a lot of reasons: one, you've been around long enough you oughta know! Also, your observations line up exactly with my experience, and others that I know.

There's been something of a thread on the WoodWorkers Forum, about this very subject. Don Farr, a relatively knew turner and friend of mine, has had the beginner blues, big time - the torn end grain, the bumpy, flat sided, flat bottomed bowl you speak of - and it was my advice as well as others, to Don, that his biggest problem was probably form. I've turned a few of those bowls, and they're rather dumpy looking, and very difficult to do on top of all that! The sharp transition is hard to make look smooth, the flat bottom entails all the difficulty of turning a platter, the flat sides force you to deal with the rigors of turning alternating side grain/end grain, and it all adds up to a very frusterating peice.

So, I think the most helpful advice that could come from this long time observation, is to get across to beginners that for the sake of ease, they ought to shoot for a bowl more like the one in this photo - not neccesarily because this would be the best bowl shape possible, but because it is simply much more acheivable than the second and third photo. Sorry the photos are not dead profile shots, but this is just what I've got - hopefully I get the point across.

Thanks Bill for the interesting post.

David Hammond

My Dad & Me, Inc.


img

Re: The Effect of Good Form (long)

#5

Re: The Harder Form - 2 

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>


img

Re: The Effect of Good Form (long)

#6

Re: The Harder Form - 3 

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>


img

Re: The Effect of Good Form (long)

#7

Keith Tompkins

Re: The Effect of Good Form (long)

Keith Tompkins

>Hi BilI, think one answer is in a straight sided bowl, your are attempting to cut directly into end grain, while in a bowl with good form, you are slicing the end grain at an angle. I think a similar effect would be trying to plane a board 90 degrees on the end grain. Then cut the same board at a 30 degree angle or so, it will plane like butter. maybe?

Re: The Effect of Good Form (long)

#8

Re: The Effect of Good Form (long)

Jim Pugh in Elyria, OH

>Bill, I'm just wondering if the beginner bowl could be cut more smoothly with a bowl gouge that has a more old fashioned/more blunt tip?

I know this type of tool will work well on the flat bottom portion but in my mind's eye using it on the steep sidewall (inside) will put the handle way over towared the back of the lathe bed, so........maybe not.

Re: The Effect of Good Form (long)

#9

Did you sign it? ;-)

steve antonucci in NW New Jersey

>I remember someone telling me it's not finished until you sign it...

Even if you think it's stump ugly, do you put your name on it?

Steve

looking to outsource sanding and finishing in NJ...

Re: The Effect of Good Form (long)

#10

Re: The Effect of Good Form (long)

Bill Grumbine, Kutztown PA

>Thanks guys for the responses. I am even getting emails to help me with my tool technique! I have posted comparative pictures as Stuart asked in a different thread. I put up the subject bowl along with two other shapes I like to turn.

Mike, I will look forward to hearing what you discover.

David, thanks for posting some pictures. A friend of mine was in the shop yesterday, and he had a bowl similar to the one I am making. He told me he was having trouble in transition between the wall and the bottom, and asked what tool I might recommend. I told him if he changed his shape - well, the shape of the bowl anyway, he would not need any other tools than what he is already using, and he would get a better surface.

Keith, I am of the same opinon as you on this. No matter what cut I tried, and I know a bunch, none of them would take out some of the fuzzy stuff, and it wouldn't sand out either!

Jim, you are right about a stubbier grind working on the bottom, but the bottom was not the biggest problem. It is the sides, inside and out. I have four cuts in my arsenal for the outside, plus two on the inside, and scraper techniques to boot, and nothing was doing the job.

Steve, I did sign it, as I did the last one. While I do not care for the shape, my customer loves it. The technical problems of executing it are mine, and making them happy is paramount. They have also brought some other work my way, and have expressed an interest in some of my art bowls, so who am I to argue with that? To not sign it would diminish it in their eyes.

As a bit of a follow up, today I roughed out a couple of honey locust bowls as part of a demonstration on the KM coring tool. I have not turned any honey locust in years, and this stuff was HARD. It is also a bit on the coarse side grainwise, but in turning a nicely shaped curve, I got a surface that if dry would not have needed hardly any sanding! Is it is the form, or did I just happen to have a bad day yesterday just like I did when I turned that last bowl?

Thanks again for the responses.

Bill

Re: The Effect of Good Form (long)

#11

Keith Tompkins

Re: The Effect of Good Form (long)

Keith Tompkins

>Hi Bill,

Try this...sharpen and hone a big, old, flat style spindle gouge, the kind nobody uses any more.

Held on its side, with the center of the bevel or lower rubbing it will clean up the outside as smooth as glass. You can experiment with the height of the tool handle, I like to keep in low. The results are unbelievable. The inside wall can be cut this way all the way to the bottom. The bottom can be cleaned up by shearing with the same tool held at a 45 degree angle to the tool rest(not flat on the rest)with the lower part of the tool, no bevel rubbing.

A bowl gouge with a regular grind works pretty well also. Let me know if you try it......

Re: The Effect of Good Form (long)

#12

Re: The Effect of Good Form (long)

JamieDonaldson

>I have noted over the years that beginner bowls often resemble mugs the first few times, and the devil is in the transition area from sidewall to bottom.The interruption in cutting this profile results in"abrasive corrections,"not the slick shear of the multiple grain directions that are achieved with the uninterrupted cut.

👍 This page answered my questions

Your vote helps other woodworkers quickly find the answers and techniques that actually work in the shop.