Rating demonstrators

Re: Rating demonstrators

Russ

>The problem with any poll, evaluation, or rating by an audience is that almost none of them are willing to commit to paper or to another person what they really think, even anonymously.

I have always considered a demonstration a success when they paid attention, nobody fell asleep, nobody asked for their money back, and they all came back after lunch.

You won't get much more than that most of the time.

Re: Rating demonstrators

John Lucas

>Keith

I agree. I would like some feedback on my demo's as apparently you do also. I think that's the only way to improve. You might need a tough skin but then that's part of the game. I realize that most people won't take the time to fill out the form completely but those who feel strongly one way or the other will probably write something.

I don't think rating the instructors would be a good idea. It's too open to bias. After all some people like certain techniques and some don't. For example we just had several complaints at the TAW symposium because Clay Foster and Andi Wolfe were showing how to color wood. They claimed there should be more basics and none of that coloring crap. Well as near as I could tell Andi and Clay both did a basic turning demo as well as wonderful demos on coloring and texturing wood but these people thought that sort of thing was useless. Well that's fine if they don't want to do it but where does that leave the rest of the audience who obviously enjoyed these demos.

Re: Rating demonstrators

Keith Tompkins

>Hi John,

In that case, the course description should have been sufficient to discourage someone from attending this type of demo if they had no interest in the topic.

In this case, a great demo could get a terrible rating.

These guys should be aware that as turners, we all have different interests, and those in charge of scheduling the demonstrators are trying to provide something of interest to ALL attendees.

Re: Rating demonstrators

John Lucas

>keith

We are definitely going to do a better job of describing each demo so the attendees can make a better choice. I talked to our president today and we already have one great instuctor. If we are successful in getting a few of the other demonstrators you guys recommended we'll have one heck of a symposium next year.

Re: Rating demonstrators

Guest

>The AAW evaluation sheets will never be made public. Won't happen. Can't say that I blame them for it either. That would be just a huge mess and hurt feelings all around.

I've often thought to myself that it would be nice to have something like a ratings system or at the very least comments about various demonstrators and their programs. There have been many within the past 2 years at various clubs that have been horrible and these were by turners with some serious experience with demonstrations too. Many clubs struggle with wondering which demonstrator is "good" or will perform well before going to the expense of hiring them to do local club demos. It'd be nice to be able to go there and read up on what they're like. Same thing goes for the AAW Symposium but they have their own internal criteria and assessment procedures.

Unfortunately, as others have said, there's just far too much variation in what one person likes/dislikes and what they were expecting in the demonstration to be able to objectively and accurately gauge their performance as demonstrators.

For example, I have been doing a lot of demonstrations lately (and I LOVING it!) and I judge other turners demonstrations a whole lot differently now than I used to. I don't view the project being done or even the outcome of it nearly as importantly as I do the presentation anymore. There are only so many ways you can turn a bowl. But it's how you present turning that bowl that can make all the difference in a presentation.

Rating the woodturners that do demonstrations all of the time nationwide (and beyond) *might* work out but, for those kinds of demonstrators, it's not really going to be all that useful. They're all good and for a reason! It's the ones that are on the second tier and below that really need the ratings and discussion about them. Those are the ones that are going to take offense; do things a bit differently than you expect which causes some controversy and widely varied ratings; etc.

Still, it's a nice idea and I could put together an anonymous rating and discussion webpage concerning it if people think it'll be useful. We can always give it a shot.

Re: Rating demonstrators

Keith Tompkins

>The website sounds like a great idea. I saw several posts, both here and at other sites, asking which demos to attend in Orlando.

It is not cheap to attend a symposium, and people expect their money's worth. some type of system may be useful.

Perhaps a star system....one star for local club demos, two stars for a regional demo. three for a national demo, etc. At least, you would know a bit about their demo'ing experience.

Re: Rating demonstrators

Duane C.Leach

>I agree there needs to be a better way. I attened the symposium in Orlando. I was very satisfied with all but one demonstrator.His session was on decorating platters. It was the worst demo I have ever seen.I got up and walked out as did others. I wounder if it would be a good idea to some how jury at lest the second teir of demonstrators. This could be done by each demonstrator applicant producing a video or two of him/her giving a demo to a live group other than his own local club and submiting them for approval.This would give the people who select the demonstraters for nanional symposiums a good idea of what they are getting.

Re: Rating demonstrators

John Lucas

>Guest

A web site might be nice but after watching one that rated instructors at our university there seems to be a lot of students who were angry at the professor and took it out on the website. If a website were started I would strongly suggest placeing the number of good or bad responses with the rating. For example one professor had an F rating but when you looked at the reviews (that were small and hidden) there was only one response. Obviously one student had a bad day.

On the plus side there were other instructors that had tons of ratings both good and bad. This gave a much better idea of the quality of the instructor. Perhaps you could hold off rating a demonstrator until a certain number of responses came through to show a trend.

Personally I've rarely seen a bad instructor. some are better than others but I've always learned something from every demo.

Re: Rating demonstrators

JamieDonaldson

>Trying to evaluate demonstrators is a very subjective subject. We have good and bad days- I know I did not do the best possible job with my square bowl demo in Orlando because the prior demo ran overtime and I didn't have sufficient time to assemble tools, materials, and my thoughts! Especially since I was turning on a new lathe with which I was not totally familiar, and a whole room full of people watching my every move like hungry hawks! Do as the teacher says, and not as he occasionally does.

Re: Rating demonstrators

Brad Vietje

>Seems like it would be hard to compile and maintain a list of the hundreds of turning demonstrators out there... I suppose the AAW could have a star system, along with some indication of what level of turning experience would be the best audience for a given presentation. This would be a service to the general turning community, and not so much for the big symposia, as you can assume that a demonstrator doesn't get an invite to demonstrate at the AAW symposium without already being a pretty good demonstrator. The problem, as I believe John pointed out, is that a demo that might really excite me, might bore someone else. That said, poor organization, and forgetting the details that connect the dots is hard to excuse.

I like teaching and demonstrating, everything from Astronomy and telescope making to wood turning, and I try to do a good job, plan ahead so everything progresses in a logical sequence, and either adjust a presentation to the experience of the audience, or indicate beforehand what level would be most appropriate.

I bring my own evaluation sheets to any regional demonstrations I've done, though a few club demonstrations had to be squeezed into such a short time slot, there was only time for verbal feedback. Host organizations should always have a standard evaluation form like the AAW does, for their own planning for the next time around, and for the instructor to receive feedback.

I think turning demonstrators who plan ahead and think about how to TEACH the topic, not just show it, are always interested in accurate feedback, and always strive to improve their demo's. If they aren't interested in this sort of feedback, they shouldn't be demonstrating. I've noticed that there people in any field who may be the most knowledgeable or experienced, but they haven't a clue how to teach it. The more complex the subject matter, the more the problem occurs. In contrast, there are some who may not have the name recognition, but are far better at making sure everyone goes away with a clear sense of what they were saying, and they try to make sure there's something in their presentation for everyone in the room.

I've seen a few demonstrations that were less than great because the demonstrator left out a few crucial details that would have held it all together. Teaching is tough -- its hard to deconstruct something you do every day, and explain why you do each step a certain way; we can't assume the audience knows what seems old hat to us.

Safe spinning,

Brad Vietje

Thetford, VT

Re: Rating demonstrators

Keith Tompkins

>Hi Jamie, I'm sure most people didn't even notice any glitches in your program.

I was impressed by the amount of preparation you did on the lathe in Orlando; no minute detail was overlooked.

I imagine you felt the same pressure as I did, performing in front of a National audience. I ALWAYS end up with a massive headache afterwards.

Re: Rating demonstrators

Keith Tompkins

>HI Duane, the video idea is a good one!

Re: Rating demonstrators

Guest

>OK We'll give it a shot and see how it works out. Anymore ideas just post here and I'll see what I can do to make it a reality in the next few days.

Basically, what I have now is:

- You'll be able to rate (point system) the turner and particular demonstration (as some turners have different presentations).

- You'll be able to put in free-form comments for each turner and demonstration

- There will be a threshold of X number of ratings per turner & demo before the averages are totalled

- You'll be able to add turners and demos yourself.

- It WILL be monitered to weed out the wild, hate comments, if any. This will be very loose monitoring and most everything will be allowed to be said, frankly. Just don't want the ladies gushing about Trents' good looks overloading the servers. :)

- Limited voting as much as possible (to prevent one person from voting on one demo a ton of times to skew the results) but unlimited comments.

- Ways to contact demonstrators so that they can be asked to demonstrate at your club, etc.

- Would like to either have some way to note demonstrators schedules and current demoing locations so that clubs might know where XYZ demonstrator is going to be next April for example. The AAW site used to have this but it's dead now I think.

And when do I get time to turn these days? hehe

(Demo'ing this evening, in fact ... yes, there will be math in the formulas to raise my ratings considerably!) Of course, I'm only like a 10th-tier local demonstrator.

Re: Rating demonstrators

JamieDonaldson

>I long ago had a language analysis professor(Philosophy major!)who reminded us "to think with the learned but speak with the vulgar." That ought to get some interesting translations!

Re: Rating demonstrators

Bill Grumbine, Kutztown PA

>Keith, I've been wanting to get in on this discussion for a while, but circumstances have prevented me from taking the time to read and consider.

First of all, Mr. (or Ms?) Guest, why are you hiding your identity from the rest of us, but going to the trouble to set up a website for exploring this subject? I for one would find it very helpful to know a little bit about the person with whom I am dealing. I do not speak for anyone else, but I find it a bit disconcerting to have someone completely anonymous speaking as if they have some authority. It may very well be that you do, but it is awfully hard accept it without knowing a bit about you. Please understand I mean no offense, I am just curious.

But on to demonstrating. I have done a lot of it in many different venues, and I have seen a number of other demonstrators, some of them very highly paid. My first observation is, just because a person is famous for making a certain thing, or even proficient at making it, does not assure us that that person will be good at demonstrating it. I was once at a demonstration where the person had pieces in the White House collection and did such a terrible job I could have cheerfully submitted to root canal to have more fun.

Demonstrating is a skill just like turning is a skill, and the two do not go hand in hand. I have seen people standing in front of a crowd mumbling about how they wish they had remembered to bring thus and so with them, because we would really see how good this works! I have seen people who threw tantrums (figuratively speaking) because they could only demonstrate on a certain size lathe. I have seen people who think that the demonstration is a jury to see if they really can make that fantastic looking piece, and spend time making sure it is of gallery quality. None of this is good demonstrating, and if famous people do this stuff at their demos, they deserve to be panned just like the rest of us. In fact, it might be a good thing to dent a few egos into a little bit of humility. We might get some more for our money in some cases.

A good demonstration shows the process for doing a thing. A good demonstrator needs to know ahead of time, and be prepared for the possibility that EVERYTHING can go wrong. The demonstrator needs to understand that they can be off with their tools, there may be miscommunication on the part of the liason at the venue, the power might go off, whatever. It takes a lot of thought to do a good demo, and thought in different areas than just making a piece in the shop to which we are accustomed. Demonstrating how to make a piece is a whole lot different than actually making it!

But I am going off on a tangent.I would like to see good feedback, or perhaps a better way to put it would be ACCURATE feedback. I did a demo out in Indiana and when I was done, the president of the club got up and announced that it was the best demo they had seen in a long time as evidenced by the fact that literally no one drifted out the door as was customary. I did the exact same demo for a club in New York and people were leaving in droves.

Was it me? I don't think so, as I had opportunity to polish it up from the first part. Was it the crowd? Maybe. Was it their expectations of the topic to be covered? It was accurately advertised, so that shouldn't be it. Was it the fact that the first was free and the second was a pay to enter? I hope not! All these variables conspire to make rating a demonstrator a very difficult thing. A lot of it has to do with personality and reputation, at least before the fact. It is hard to know what to do with a person until they have been there and done it. By then it is too late, at least for that club or group. I guess if they ever go back is one indicator, but even that is not an accurate gauge. Accurate, objective feedback is the way to go, but unfortunately, there are very few people willing to take the time or the trouble to do that.

I think that building a reputation for demonstrating is as important as building a reputation for turning whatever it is that we turn, at least if that individual wants to demo. Rating that ability is going to be a hard thing and subject to lots of intangible variables.

Bill

You missed one

Russ

>Bill,

In your listing of grievances about the "professionals", you missed one. The guy who uses the demonstration as a info-mercial to sell tools, classes, books, videos or whatever.

And, there are those who take further advantage by leaving out just enough that we have to take the class, or buy the book, to learn how they really did it. Their excuse is usually not enough time.

A good demonstration will cover ONE subject COMPLETELY. A good demonstration can be only 10-minutes if the demonstrator is prepared, the message is conveyed, and the topic of interest to the audience. We have all seen those who start their presentation, stop when the time is up, and leave us to figure the rest of it for ourselves.