Cherry Salt/Peppermill set

Nice!

Ron in Drums PA

>Nice looking pair. Well done!

Re: Cherry Salt/Peppermill set

RevDoug

>I like them a lot. The only design question I would have would concern the bottom of both. I can't help but wonder if they wouldn't look even better if you had copied the beading and flare from the top to the bottom. In other words, raise the lower beading further up the body of the grinders and carry the curve or the body all the way to the bottom instead of stopping and going verticle.

This is just a question and you may have come up with the better idea. The lines just look interupted to me. Other than that, I am liking what I see. Keep up the good work.

Re: Cherry Salt/Peppermill set

Greg W. in NC

>Chuck,

Nice looking set. You did a nice job of matching them.....that's the harder part of these, isn't it? I think the simpler design might help, correct? (and that's smart) Excellent choice of wood, too! I recently bought some cherry squares specifically for mills - I love these mills done in cherry!

Personally, I like more curves, as Doug mentioned also. I wonder how comfortable the handles are to turn? I usually try to avoid sharp convex angles on the tops of my mills. Sometimes turning a 'prototype' with some cheap wood will give you an idea of how it'll feel to use.

The other comment I have is regarding the finish - I don't think the friction finish is going to last very long. Friction finishes just aren't generally a good idea on utility items that'll be used / handled frequently.

These are just my thoughts. Overall, I like these, and like I said you did a nice job of matching them. I'm being critical because you asked. However, as is so often the case in our craft/art, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so as long as your friend's mother likes them, that's what is important. Good job, and thanks for sharing these!

Re: Cherry Salt/Peppermill set

Karl in IA

>Excellent job! Very nice.

Uh-oh! Friction polish

Chuck Ludwigsen

>Uh-oh! I didn't know that about friction polish. Thanks for the warning. This was the first time I have used it since I got it to make pens and was amazed how easy it went on and buffed up. But easy doesn't always last, so I'll keep that in mind for future pieces.

My original design called for a rounded top, but SWMBO and her best friend - who was the recipient of these for her mother, overrode that and preferred the angular top. I knocked the corner off and they were right. These are really not uncomfortable to use. But you and I were thinking along the same lines.

Regarding matching them. Thanks for the compliment. I start with a very detailed drawing that I make in a program called Cycas (junior Autocad type program). If interested, I will try to convert it to an image and post it so you can see what I mean. By drawing multiple reference lines and having calipers, squares, rules, and tape measures in the plenty around me, I can usually get in pretty close. The first one will determine any variations from the "plan" and the second gets pretty much turned to match the first. I use the plan to get close and then repeatedly measure the first one to finish the second.

A simpler design does help, but sometimes the term "simpler" is subjective. For me, it is sometimes harder to make the long flowing curve identical than it is to make the the crown or the beads. Something about there being so much open space to make a mistake in.

I'm going to try to include more curves with my next one. I just get nervous turning these long slender pieces with that gaping 1" hole down the middle.

All in all, I am happy with these. They are utilitarian yet decorative. The wood is lovely and I will certainly use Cherry again.

I appreciate the comments and critiques. I would get more bothered by no-one commenting than I ever would be reading your suggestions.

Thanks again,

Chuck in Memphis, TN.

Re: Uh-oh! Friction polish

Greg W. in NC

>Chuck,

I usually use lacquer on my mills. I made a set for my brother and his wife about three years ago, and even though the mills are used daily, they truly do show very little wear and tear. I know lacquer is somewhat of a pain, but folks seem to like it. By the way, one thing about these mills, they can always be unassembled and refinished!

Another option would be an oil finish and let the woods develop their own patina. Dominic suggested that to me, and that works fairly well also.

Nick Cook, in his AAW article, mentioned urethane oil, finished to a satin finish. I am going to try a polyurethane finish on some, in the near future.

I hear you on the long, slow curve, and you're right - those can definitely be difficult to repeat! It seems like one of the hardest things for penturners to do is get a perfectly straight line, even if only for 2 inches!

I'm curious - what are the dimensions on these mills? What mechanisms did you use?

Re: Sizes and Specs

Chuck Ludwigsen

>Oh ya, a straight line is TOUGH. I made a rolling pin for a friend and fretted constantly to get a flat cylinder that rolled straight.

I'll try the lacquer approach. Hmmm, I think I need to go shopping ;-).

Okay, dimensions and kit info...

These are 8" kits. The plan actually has you turn them 8-1/8" tall. The cherry blank started at 10-1/2" tall. They are 2-1/16" at the base and the fattest part of the crown. They are 1-3/8" at the narrow part of the neck. So with the 1" chamber, that means the walls are only 3/16" for a good portion of the length.

These are the Deluxe peppermill and salt mill kits from Craft Supplies USA. CSUSA just started carrying the deluxe salt mill mechanisms. Packard carries them as well. The salt mill was actually labeled "Chef Specialties" and that is who I think makes the pepper mechanism too. WARNING!!! They require a 1-1/16" hole for the mechanism.

For the life of me, I could not find that size in a Forstner bit and didn't want to pay a fortune for a bit. So I did 1" and then attached 80 grit sandpaper to a dowel to expand it the 1/16". I did some test holes at 1-1/8" but it left a noticeable gap.

Here is a plan drawing that might help you follow my strange thinking...

Take care,

Chuck.

Re: Uh-oh! Friction polish

Russ

>There are a few points to be made in favor of shellac before we give it a bum rap and condemn it as being a poor finish for the pepper grinders. Done properly, a friction polish can be an acceptable finish for them; but it can be a poor finish for the same item if it is not done properly.

There are several things to keep in mind when using a friction polish, whether it be a commercial product or a home-brew mixture. Shellac by itself is a hard finish that is quite durable and totally waterproof, but can be damaged by strong alcohols. The problem comes when we use it in what we call a Friction Polish. These are a mixture of shellac, oils, and wax. The oils and waxes make it more workable and easier to apply, but if they are allowed to become a part of the final finish, it will be sofer than if it were shellac alone.

The secret to using a friction polish is to get rid of the oil and wax. The only way I know of doing this is by the heat from friction. It is easy to forget that its very name contains the word "friction" and not "wipe-on", and that friction means "heat". It has to get hot enough to melt the shellac so it will flow across the surface of the wood, and also boil the waxes and oils out of the finish so there is nothing left on the wood except pure shellac.

This has to be in excess of finger burning temperature, and is one more reason for using a double thickness of velour towel as an applicator. Using paper towels offers no insulation and will require band-aids to keep the fingers from burning. Anything less will put a finish on the wood that is less than pure shellac.

The 2 most common mistakes by folks using a friction polish is not enough heat and too much polish. Not enough heat will not get rid of the wax and oil. Too much polish will make it more difficult to generate that heat, and make it impossible to get rid of the circular rings in the thicker surface film.

All of this is relatively easy to do with something as small as a pen, but maybe not so easy on something the size of a peppermill.

And, it goes without saying that the final surface on the finish can be no better than that of the wood under it.

Re: Uh-oh! Friction polish-Velour towel?

Doug Leite

>Russ,

Excuse my ignorance, but what is a velour towel?

Thanks for all of your excellent posts. We all learn a lot from you.

Aloha

Doug

Re: Uh-oh! Friction polish-Velour towel?

Russ

>A terrycloth bath towel with a velour finish on one side. I get them at Wal-Mart here. Cut a strip and fold it over so the soft velour is to the outside and use that to apply the finish. The thickness will protect your fingers from the heat, and the shellac will form a seamless matt on the surface

Re: Uh-oh! Friction polish

Chuck Ludwigsen

>Thanks Russ. I might be okay then. I used a paper towel wrapped around one of those combination sponge and green scrunge pad (sponge side toward the peppermill) to burn the friction polish in. That was pretty much how I thought I was supposed to do it.

We'll just have to wait and see how the finish holds up in these, but I will watch my steps carefully in the future.

Thanks,

Chuck (always learning - always having way too much fun).

Re: Uh-oh! Friction polish

Greg W. in NC

>Russ,

Thanks for your post, and I agree - there does seem to be some misunderstandings on how to apply friction polish. Do you think that a friction polish finish will last as long as, say, lacquer? I have done (note the past tense) many, many pens with friction polish, and yes, applied properly, but I have found that finish to not last as long as either a CA finish or a lacquer finish. It is a pretty common thought process amongst many penturners that a friction finish just won't last very long. Anyway, I am curious as to your thoughts on this....maybe something like a peppermill would work ok with a friction finish? Thanks!

Re: Uh-oh! Friction polish

Russ

>When we compare finishes we have to put some definition on hardness and durability. One of the tests that we can use is the pencil hardness test. In its simplest terms, this test involves rubbing a sharpened lead pencil across the surface of the finish to see which grade of pencil lead is the hardest that WILL NOT leave an impression or scratch in the surface of the finish.

Using this test, we will find that the hardest pencil lead we can use on a PURE shellac is about a "2B", or a common lead pencil. Anything harder will scratch the surface. The hardest pencil lead that can be rubbed on a nitrocellulose lacquer will be an "F".

We can argue the merits of the two finishes forever, but there isn't really a lot of difference between a 2B and an F lead in hardness. CA glue, on the other hand, is a plastic material that will survive being scratched with at least a 2H pencil for most glue products where an accelerator was used, and a 4H if not. This tells us that CA glue is much harder as a finish than either shellac or lacquer, but that its hardness is reduced by using an accelerator.

With hardness comes brittleness. While a CA glue can be much harder than a lacquer it is also more brittle. A CA finish can "crack" when a pen is dropped, while a lacquer will only "dent".

The problem with making any comparison between shellac and nitrocellulose lacquer is the time factor. When is the comparison made? Is it immediately after application, tomorrow, next week, or next year?? Shellac is still relatively soft but can be handled the next day, can be buffed after a week, but will not reach its full hardness for a year. Lacquer will be near its full hardness after a couple days, and fully cured in no longer than a week. A very thick film may take longer.

The problem with a Friction Polish is with all of the things that are added to the shellac to allow us to duplicate a French Polish (pure shellac) without all of the work. This easy to use finish comes at a price. A common friction polish is 2/3 thin (1-pound cut or less) shellac and 1/3 linseed oil and wax. Any of these oils and waxes that are left in the finish on the wood will act as plasticizers that soften the shellac. The problem is getting them out. We can NEVER get all of them out of the finish, so it will always be softer than a pure shellac. How much softer depends on how mush of the oils and waxes we were able to remove during the application.

Even mixing our own shellac from flakes can be a problem because of moisture in the air. The raw flakes can absorb moisture, and the alcohol used as a solvent readilly absorbs moisture from the air. The result of this water in the mixed shellac is also a softening of the shellac film.

One of the reasons that we often find nitrocellulose lacquer to be the harder finish is because it is not soluble in water and it is not affected by moisture absorbed from the air.

There is no finish that we can put on the surface of something like a pen that will not wear through. How fast depends on the thickness of the film on the surface and the "human factors" - our body chemistry, our PH, our skin texture, perspiration (amount and chemistry), personal hygene, how we use the pen, how often and where we use it. My experience with the relative durability of pen finishes tells me that a pure shellac or a properly applied friction polish will last at least 4X longer than one that isn't. A poorly done friction polish is only slightly better than a wax. A lacquer should last about 1.5X longer than a good shellac. CA glue will last at least twice as long as lacquer if an accelerator was used, and longer yet if not.

The best finish for a pen might be a Stabilized Wood or a plastic material because the finishing resins are a similar hardness as nitrocellulose lacquer and it is the thickness of the pen barrel. They can be worn down to the brass tubes before we run out of finish. There is also a good case to be made for polished wood. Like a stabilized wood, there will be no change in the wood surface until it is worn away to the brass tubes; the difference is that the stabilized wood will take longer to get there.

Re: Uh-oh! Friction polish

Greg W. in NC

>Russ, thanks for a very descriptive answer! You actually answered some questions I had some time back - that is, hardness ratings of the verious finishes.

Again, I appreciate the info!

Re: Uh-oh! Friction polish

Chuck Ludwigsen

>Russ,

Please consider adding that one to "Russ's Corner". Very good description of a difficult area to understand.

Thanks again,

Chuck

How to apply lacquer?

Tony - Memphis

>I bought a kit and will be trying my hand at making a pepper mill soon. How does one apply lacquer?

Tony

Re: How to apply lacquer?

Mark Kauder

>If you are only doing a few, and do not intend to use lacquer for other things, just buy a can of clear spray lacquer.

However, once you go through about 10 cans of spray lacquer, you could have bought an inexpensive spray gun. I have a gravity feed one, that is currently on sale at Harbor Freight for about $40. (assuming you have an air compressor.)

Mark

Re: How to apply lacquer?

Tony - Memphis

>Thanks. My dad used 100's of cans of Deft when I was a kid! We lived in Germany and he bought and sold antiques. Everything in our house was coated in Deft. After 30 years and 3 boys, it all still looks great.

Tony