Tung Oil question:

Re: Tung Oil question:

Richard Allen

>Buffing will soften the feel. You don't need to use the wax in the beal system to get the softer feel.

You can also soften the feel with other abrasives like rottenstone or some of the automotive rubing compounds.

Re: Tung Oil question:

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Do you mean just buffing with a cotton wheel with nothing on it, Richard? I've never done any buffing, so this is out of my league here... Thanks for the response though - and where can I find rottenstone? Thanks.

David

Re: Tung Oil question:

Richard Allen

>You need an abrasive. The red stuff to remove slight defect the white stuff to remove the tinny scratches that the red stuff makes. You might get by with just the white stuff. The Beal buffing system comes with red, white and wax to be used in that order using differnt wheels.

Buffing without an abrasive would likely have no effect.

Re: Power buffing and alternatives *LINK*

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>You may want to take a look at my article on power buffing I did for More Woodturning. It is available in pdf format at the link


http://www.fholder.com/Woodturning/lyn.html

Re: Tung Oil question:

John Trant (aka Boxes-n-Bowls)

>1) Let the oil finish harden for a month (the finish must be hard to be "rubbed out"),

2) Sand by hand with MicroMesh to 6000 grit using soapy water or mineral spirits as a lubricant, or use pads, or use pumice and rottenstone, or power buff with Tripoli and White Diamond. This will remove the nubbs, provide the silky feel and polish to appropriate luster.

3) Wax by hand or with power buffer

John

Re: Power buffing?

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In Jersey

>Hey Lyn,

Do you happen to know what the binder is that's used to hold the abrasive together in those sticks of buffing compound?

Re: Power buffing?

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>Most continue to have a high tallow content, though some of the more modern formulations are more petroleum based (i.e, parafin like compounds).

Re: ie

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In Jersey

>WAX.

It's one thing to use the compounds to reduce-buff-rub out finish coatings where the medium can then be removed with a cloth and a little benign solvent. It's another thing entirely to think that that nifty sheen imparted to raw wood in because of the abrasives.

Been using Tripoli, White Diamond and Rough for 30 years, on metal. Last place I'd ever use them is on raw wood.

Ain't advertising great? Guy puts a couple of cotton wheels and 2 sticks of compound in a box, and suddenly he's got a "Buffing System" (with capitol letters, no less) to sell.

Myself, I prefer Maguires 2, 3, & 9 and a little lamb's wool [after 400 wet sanding] to get the following on oil-finished crotch oak (10+" x 7" Joisey Black Oak filled with epoxy)

Re: Tung Oil question:

David Hammond, in Powder Springs GA

>Thanks John, I appreciate your response - I like the idea of pumice and rottenstone, and then a wax. Thanks.

David

Re: ie

adrien

>Hi Mark,

Was that New "Joisey Black Oak?"

Re: ie

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>You asked me what is the binder.

I answered informing you it was tallow or petroleum based paraffin like compounds.

You seemed to already have your own understanding, and responded to my reply with "WAX"

Ganoskin (a major gem and jewelry resource) has a nice article on buffing compounds and here is their statement:

"The bonding material has little if any effect on the cutting or polishing action of the agents and it appears that all of them use similar binding materials. Stearic acid (animal fat acid), and paraffin wax (mineral grease) seem to be the predominate materials."

Tallow of course being animal fat and the paraffin being of course petroleum based as I said. These are components to oils, greases and waxes, all of which are used as binders for buffing compounds. Most of those bars you are familiar with actually are a combination of waxes and greases, with those having higher grease content usually allowing better application to the wheels.

Irrespective of your preferences, turners can use the buffing compounds with either raw or finished wood. Jerry Beall generally suggests applying an oil finish (Tung, PTO, or BLO) or oil/varnish combos, prior to buffing, but one is not limited to these finishes, or even using no finish at all. As with any finish or lack of finish, there are many tradeoffs. Turners select the finish that most matches their desired level of protection and most appreciated aesthetic qualities. Lots of turners have used the Beall system on raw wood and liked the result, particularly on dense oily woods like cocobolo. Others use it to "finish a finish." You may have your preferences, others have theirs.

The abrasives in the compounds are just that, abrasives. Tripoli is basically a finely ground rock, White Diamond is usually tin or aluminum oxide. They do what any other abrasive does, scratch the surface to which they are applied. Just as sand paper does, and just as other polishing compounds do. Buffing is just an easy way to achieve this scratching efficiently. My article contains a section describing why Russ feels another approach is often preferable, and so folks can gain an understanding of what buffing can do and what is at least one alternative.

You mention you like Meguiar's finishing compounds. Actually I use these all the time on motor vehicles. So what are they composed of, Petroleum distillates, glycerin and diatomaceous earth or silica (basically quartz dust) or aluminum oxide for abrasives. Not remarkably different components than those found in many buffing compounds.

Jerry Beall and others (such as Wood n' Things in the US and Chris Stotts in the UK) put a package together and offer an approach to finishing wood products. Again, many have been extremely pleased with the results. Jerry introduced the general community of woodworkers to the products and procedure; he (and now others) also conveniently packaged the products together so that turners didn't have to chase down the individual components and question if they purchased the optimal combination. I don't begrudge him for the profit he makes for his efforts, and appreciate that a tidy package is put together. He also has manufactured a means to conveniently mount the products on a lathe. Now other folks can choose to track down or make up these things for themselves, all made easier because Jerry has already demonstrated an effective combination.

There are lots of roads to a desirable finish, and indeed there is lots of room for individual preferences in what is a desirable finish. I am happy you have found yours and have chosen to share it with others, but I don't see why at the same time you feel the need to disparage another approach.

Re: ie

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In Jersey

>Chur

|;-}

Re: Disparagement?

Mark Mandell - Gone Round In Jersey

>On the contrary. Our economy runs upon the entrepreneur who finds another way to sell products. If Beall and Co. make a zillion, more power to them for providing a compact and useful product in a convenient package. Just Pl-ease don't call it a "System" like some completely new and creative item or process was invented here. The same "system" has been used by jewelers for a century or more.

By-the-by. The "auto" compounds, like Meguires, are "paintable" meaning that more finish can be applied directly to the surface without having to wash with solvent to remove the wax/grease/etc. and hoping that you got it all off. Providing complete control over what is left on the wood surface I see as an advantage for the woodworker.

As always, others mileage may vary.

|;-}

Re: System

Lyn J. Mangiameli

>I found your remarks disparaging, and needlessly and inaccurately so. Others can decide for themselves.

In my perception, you put forward a red herring, that buffing must leave no residue that can interfere with paint or other finishes later applied. I am unaware of anyone who has called for turners to buff prior to applying any finish other than wax. The only applications I have seen of buffing have involved buffing raw wood with no intention of ever applying any additional finish beyond wax, or buffing after a finish has been applied with no intention of applying further coats. With an applied finish, be it a penetrating oil or a film finish, any of the buffing compounds used with these systems, and the applied carnuba wax can be removed from most turnings without problem (say for repair) simply by wiping down the finish with a mild solvent. Indeed, I have often later applied oil finishes to older turnings finished by a buffing system without any need to even remove the wax. Generally, the oils themselves dissolve the light coating of wax that remained.

As for system, that's what Beall choose to call it and in my article I refer to buffing systems, plural. The Oxford English Dictionary (the preferred source for definition by most literate people) gives as its first definition of "system" the following:

"I. An organized or connected group of objects.

1. A set or assemblage of things connected, associated, or interdependent, so as to form a complex unity;..."

That's what Jerry did and others now do. He assembled components to form a "complex unity" that performs a specific task--at least as much of a complex unity as other assemblages that are referred to as systems.

I am not unaware of the role of buffing in jewelry making, nor for that matter, metal work in general (and I suspect this is not new information to most woodworkers, either). I reference it in my article with respect to some compounds and buffing wheels. You may have also noted that I referenced a jewelry source to reinforce my comments about tallow and paraffin-like compounds being the foundation for the binders in buffing compounds. That a process has been used previously in another craft does nothing to negate the use of the word system with respect to the buffing components Jerry and others have assembled, nor does it negate the value of Jerry bring to woodworkers attention a previously little used method of applying and/or refining a wood finish.

What site am I on?

Dinyar Chavda

>I could have sworn I typed in woodcentral.com, but I must have somehow gotten linked into rec.crafts.woodturning!

Give it a rest, or do it off-line.

Dinyar

Re: System

Bruce McElhaney Spring Lake, MI

>Lyn, I enjoyed your article, and found your website informative. Please don't pay any attention to the guy with the attitude problem.

Re: Tung Oil question:

Earl

>I'm a little late to respond so if anybody is still following it, here are a couple more easy fixes. First, just take 0000 steel wool and dip it in paste wax and rub out the tung oil. I've been doing this for 20 years in furniture building and now turning and it works great. A little elbow grease and the bowls will be smooth as silk. You can also apply the last coat of tung oil with 0000 steel wool and rub it out. Both work great and maintain most of the shine while smoothing it out.