Ebonizing Walnut/Vinegar Solution Question

Re: Ebonizing Walnut/Vinegar Solution Question

Mark Kauder, Phenix City, AL

>Ron,

Normally, I wet the steel wool first with water, let it set a day or two and then put it in the vinegar and wait another day or two before using the solution.

Then other thing you need to know, is that when you apply it, it will take a minute or two to start to work. And then I usually apply it a couple of times. When dry, it will be pretty gray, but once you apply Oil, Poly, Lacquer, etc, it will look black.

Mark

Re: Ebonizing Walnut/Vinegar Solution Question

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>There's not a lot of difference between the chemical composition of rusty nails and rusty steel wool. The reason to use steel wool is that it has more surface area, and therefore rusts faster. Rust the wool first, wet, but out in the air, until it is starting to crumble away, before you throw it into the vinegar.

The degree of ebonization depends on the amount of tannin in the wood. I have had really good results with mahogany, less so with red oak, but haven't tried it on walnut (probably because I like the natural color of walnut :^). I've also used in on Osage orange, and achieved a rich, deep brown, but not black.

Second question

Ron Sardo in PA

>Thanks guys. Second question if I may.

Do you guys strain the solution before applying it to the wood?

Re: Second question

Sean

>Hey all, what type of vinager do you use? Thanks, Sean

Re: Ebonizing Walnut/Vinegar Solution Question

John Lucas

>Ron

The reason I went to Annaline dye was the inconstency of the steel wool and vinegar solution. I would try it on 3 different ash or oak board and get 3 different results.

Re: Second question

Frederick Nelson

>Absolutely. Strain or filter the solution. Ferric acetate, the result of the reaction of acetic acid (vinegar) and iron is also used as an etchant in making printed circuit boards. Since this is an aqueous (water-borne) solution, it will raise the grain so fine sanding and repeating are necessary. I would recommend raising the grain and re-smoothing once or twice before the first application of the ferric acetate solution. Then be prepared to for yet another cycle of fine sanding and re-application to get the surface you desire.

In my experience with the solution on walnut, it produced a dull charcoal gray surface on the top surface of the wood, that sanded off almost completely with only light sanding. The re-application did not raise the grain very much and the application of a gloss polyurethane varnish turned the surface a very shiny black that eliminated all question of whether the surface was black enough.

One further thought - both the steel wool you use and the surface to be coated must be completely free of any oils that will affect the reaction. Oils on the steel wool (it need not be pre-rusted) and oils on the wood will interfere with the desired reactions with the vinegar or the wood.

From my experience,

FNelson

Re: Second question

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>You must use the best balsamic vinegar you can buy, Modena :^) Just teasing.

The reaction is with the vinegar (acetic acid, CH₃

Re: Second question

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>I agree, it's a good idea to raise the grain beforehand, because the chemical reaction often doesn't penetrate very deeply into the wood. You want to minimize the sanding you have to do afterwards, because it is really easy to sand right through the ebonized wood. Whenever possible, the ebonization and knocking down of the raised grain should be the last thing you do before applying the finish. (Same goes for similar chemical coloring processes, e.g., as ammonia fuming.)

I'm curious about your recommendation for filtering the solution, however. I have never bothered. In fact, I have been known to dump more vinegar and rust into the pot as I use it up. What pitfall am I missing? What can go wrong if I don't filter out the nails, crud and sediment laying at the bottom of the pot? Note that I usually try to be careful not to shake up the pot before dipping the applicator rag into the top of it.

Re: Ebonizing Walnut/Vinegar Solution Question

Russ Fairfield

>Nobody has mentioned (or did I miss it?) that you can increase the effectiveness of the Ebonizing solution by adding tannins to the wood. Do this with a very strong tea, which has a high tannin content. When I have done this, I used about 5 bags in a cup of water that I kept boiling for about 15-minutes, and then let it cool warm before wiping it on the wood.

Re: Ebonizing Walnut/Vinegar Solution Question

Dinyar Chavda

>We used to drink tea which was that strong in India. No wonder we added milk to it, else I hate to think what it would have done to my insides!

Re: Ebonizing Walnut/Vinegar Solution Question

Chuck Ludwigsen

>My mom swears by the Tetley brand ;-). But that is a great idea, Russ. I never considered increasing the tanin content.

A question... Is it possible to ebonize just a strip around the bowl by masking it off with tape? If so, would electrical tape work well? I was toying with the idea of doing that to set off a rim or something.

Chuck in Memphis, TN.

Re: Ebonizing Walnut/Vinegar Solution Question

Mark Kauder, Phenix City, AL

>Chuck,

Capillary action will take the solution a way from the point you apply it. At the very least you will create a fuzzy line.

When I use it in a segmented bowl, I create my seperations between the ebonized and the non-ebonized wood with black veneer.

Mark

Re: Second question

Pascal Oudet

>I have found that when the solution is too old, the original clear (as vinegar) liquid will get a rusty color that will not improve its efficiency, but can "dye" the wood (through color, not chemical reaction). it can be an inconvenient when combining with other effects, such as white liming in these hollow forms (wood is chestnut, so highly tannic, height 6 1/2" and 2 1/2"). filtering can improve this.

I too had better results with rusty nails than with steel wool, probably because of the anti-rusting coat in the wool.

Pascal

Re: Ebonizing Walnut/Vinegar Solution Question

Russ Fairfield

>If rusty nails work better than steel wool works better than rusty nails, it follows that using BOTH of them would be better than either.

Re: Second question

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>Thanks Pascal. Those are stunning pieces. You definitely wouldn't want any rust discoloring the effect you have achieved with them.

The additional pigments might make less difference with walnut, depending on the effect you are looking for. When I'm trying to mimic the color of antique walnut in a reproduction, I usually use some Burnt Umber, which has a color similar to rust :^)

In any case, it never hurts to insert the reminder: When trying a new finishing effect, try it on scrap first.

Re: Ebonizing Walnut/Vinegar Solution Question

John Lucas

>Chuck

One of our turners brought in an ash vessel with ebonized walnut ring inserted. He applied finish to the Ash before inserting the walnut ring. Then he ebonized the walnut after sanding and turning being careful not to damage the ash. It sure looked nice.

I wish I had said that....lol

TDaniel

>

Thanks Everyone - Long

Ron Sardo in PA

>I played with some scraps last night and used a hair dyer to quicken the drying process. I gave the wood a four coats of vinegar, final sanding only to 220 (this is only a test remember) then applied lacquer. Yes, it black all right. The fresh steel wool took better than 3 days before it was strong enough.

I have and still use aniline dyes on different projects (which are mixed with water). Since vinegar is reduced with water, I figured I would have to raise the grain, which I did that last night. Thanks for the reminder.

John, I agree 100% with your comment about aniline dyes for constancy. But I wanted to experiment to see what happens. I've also "painted" india ink on to maple with satisfactory results. All three give different results. Being an artist by schooling, I like to broaden my palette of colors. You never know when it might become helpful.

Russ, tea is great. I was paneling a room with tongue and groove cedar boards. The last few boards where almost white. None of the local lumber yards had any more cedar in stock. I brewed a box of tea bags in a gallon of water and "painted" the solution on. To this day (4 years later) you can not tell the difference between which boards where painted and which one where not. I've also use tea to darken cherry's sap wood.

It's good to know that this potion has a shelf life and needs to be strained. I didn't do that last night but I will do it before I use it on the final project.

Again - Thanks all for all your responses!

Re: Second question

Arch

>Sean,

All vinegar contains acetic acid and will work. However if you use GARLIC vinegar add aroma to the things you should check before sending the piece out.

Someone.

Would boiling the vinegar concentrate the acetic acid or drive it off? I assume that a higher concentration makes for more iron acetate and that makes for darker ebonizing? Can you put the strong tea in the vinegar?

Arch

Re: Ebonizing Walnut/Vinegar Solution Question

William R. Duffield on the Cohansey

>That's really funny.

A quote from Cool Hand Luke is apropos, "What we have here is a failure to communicate."

Or maybe, "The devil is in the details," which are often missed when we have a "schedule crunch" or when we try to communicate in ASCII alone.

Back in the "good old days," steel wool was just that, flexible steel with lots of sharp cutting edges. Nowadays, like most of the food we buy, they put antioxidants in it, because it's "better" for us. It turns out that it's better for their quarterly bottom line, because they have fewer returns and fewer complaints from curmudgeons like me and Russ.

I guess which is really better depends on whether you are an "instant gratification" or a "patience of Job," or a Dilbert type of guy.

If you need ebonization in a hurry, start with 0000 steel wool to maximize surface area to volume, spray it with 409 to cut through the hydrocarbon coating, rinse it and leave it out in the sun on a warm day to increase the oxidation rate. If you need it Yesterday, you might consider mixing some hydrogen peroxide with the 409.

Be careful. There are other methods some very impatient people might be tempted to try to increase the oxidation rate. DO NOT use your welding gasses, especially Oxygen, on hot steel wool. After the ensuing conflagration, the desired Fe₂O₃ will be scattered to the four winds.

Also, stainless steel wool and brass wool are obviously not effective substitutes :^)

Here is another recipe: To make a quart of ferric acetate, put a pad of soapless steel wool and I quart of vinegar in an old saucepan. Bring to a boil and simmer for 5 minutes. Drop 3% hydrogen peroxide (household strength) into the solution until the color turns dark brown.

Re: Ebonizing Walnut/Vinegar Solution Question

Bill Hale / The Wood Spinner

>Could be oil on the steel wool. I use the grindings from a tire / brake shop brake drum turning machine. An ounce or so per Qt.. A second and third coat will also darken more.

Good turnin and be safe

Bill