Topic or Thread?

Re: Topic or Thread?

RevDoug

>If I bought an art piece, looking as perfect as it can be, I would expect it to be stable and to hold it's form. The warping you describe sounds like it had just been turned and was very unstable. I might be a bit didturbed by the warping.

On the otherhand, if the piece was already warped (turned green and allowed to move), more warping wouldn't make a bit of difference to me.

I guess my answer is "it depends on the situation." What is the background of your question?

Re: Topic or Thread?

John Lucas

>Terry

That's exactly why I quit making segmented work. My basement shop is way to moist so anything I make has a higer moisture level than most homes. If you place my segmented pieces in a dry environment especially a lighted cabinet they will always move and can easil break. When I had an air conditioned place this wasn't a problem.

Large pieces of wood are going to move a lot more. I would think they could handle it if the change was gradual but if you went from good Ole Georgia and Tennessee moisture into a hot really dry home you could have problems. Up until now I haven't had any problems but my bowls were always less than 12". Now that I have a bigger lathe I'm going to have to look into this further.

Good topic. Should bring some interesting discussion.

Re: Topic or Thread?

Wally Dickerman at Green Valley, Az.

>Interesting question Terry. First of all, shame on the turner who didn't allow his piece to properly dry before putting it up for sale. Severe warping and cracking wouldn't happen had it been done right.

I can see where the person buying the piece would be very disappointed, and would quite possibly not buy another wooden vessel.

Wally

Re: Topic or Thread?

Ron Sardo in PA

>This answer would all depend on how educated I am in understanding wood.

1. Have a good idea about wood:

Yes, I would purchase another piece of wood art after I find all contact information and the proper way to store wooden art.

2. Don't have a clue about wood:

No, I would never buy another piece of wood art because I would feel it is an inferior medium.

Last December the wife and I stayed overnight at a B&B. There where allot of knick-knacks in the room and the one that caught my eye was a small wooden bowl made from mandrone. Beautifully done with a lacquer finish you could fall into. On the bottom, there was a small label, with contact info, wood type, and basic care insurrections. I thought this was a great way for resales!

Art and Art shows - A bit *LONG*

Chuck Ludwigsen

>Excellent topic-thread, Terry.

My wife visits her mother in Branson and sometimes buys small handcrafted items from shops there. In many (most) cases, they look cheap, feel cheap, work cheap, and I fully expect them to break cheap. I keep telling her she gets what I pay for. In this case, I have no expectation of returns or refunds or even a good experience.

With the 'art show' scenario, you put a different twist on it. Most art shows are the product of a specific art dealer or group. So, in the absence of a stated policy that issues should be taken up with the artist directly, the issue should be addressed with the dealer that ran the show.

In all likelihood, the dealer bought the piece from the "artist/craftsman" (now don't start THAT again ;-)), so you would take it up with them and they would take it up if they chose to with the artist. Or they would simply not get anything from that person for future shows. We vote with our feet alot.

So to finally answer your question...

(Answer 1) If I knew and loved wood art but had a bad experience with a piece/dealer/artist, then it would not affect my buying wood art in the future but would affect who I bought it from.

(Answer 2) If I was someone with know real knowledge of wood art or how to care for it and truly appreciate it but it was something I bought "because it looked good on my mantle", then it might affect future purchases of that medium. I might choose copper pots next time - oh darn, they dent and ding easily...

You get the picture. Many people who buy art don't know much about art and make future decisions about TYPES of art based on their experience buying/owning that first piece and not on the art itself. Thats people for ya.

Hope this adds to the value of the discourse.

Chuck in Memphis, TN.

Re: Topic or Thread?

Chuck Ludwigsen

>Man! You said everything I did but with a whole lot less words!!!

Chuck in Memphis, TN.

Re: Art and Art shows - A bit *LONG*

JamieDonaldson

>This thread has not mentioned the recourse for the buyer of the "defective merchandise." As a collector and turner, I know the possible problems, but I also would want my money back as any other buyer of a defective product, especially at todays market prices of art objects. It is the responsibility of the artist to deliver a serviceable product to the buyer, and make restitution for defective merchandise.

Re: Topic or Thread?

TDaniel

>Let's say the piece is one that should not warp or crack; not a natural edge bowl or vessel but a piece that should retain its shape. Actually, I have seen 2 pieces recently that fit the topic here and I feel it hurts us all when something is sold too soon. Some are convinced that the soap soaking will allow them to go from green to sold in 30 days. Should we make this our Wed night topic for next week?

TD

Re: Art and Art shows - A bit *LONG*

Chuck Ludwigsen

>I sure thought I covered that, Jamie.

I basically said that if a dealer buys it from an artist and sells it to you and the dealer doesn't give you a way to recover from the artist, then you have to seek relief from the dealer and the dealer has to seek relief from the artist/craftsman.

But since Terry's real question was if that hurts all of us because a person might not buy anything wood art again, he is right. We need to do what we can to put out quality work. And I mean not just workmanship, but allowing the piece to stabilize or withstand expected handling and conditions.

Chuck in Memphis, TN.

Re: Topic or Thread?

Russ Fairfield

>Maybe its just me, but there is one thing wrong with your scenario. It is something that I never see. I never see anybody buying art "blind", unless it is cheap.

The art buyer expects a record of the transaction. From the gallery or other dealer, they will get a receipt, a return policy, and recourse for any problem. They expect these same things when buying direct from the artist. The work has to be signed, they get a sales receipt, a business card, and assurance that any problems will be corrected.

The other problem here is that the artist should never be selling "blind". We owe it to ourselves, our reputation, and future sales, to keep a record of all transactions. I have found the digital camera to be an excellent record keeper. I take a photo and file it for reference with the buyers address and telephone number. If the sale was at a show, I send them an invitation to the next show I attend in the same area. If the sale was through a gallery, I send them a photo of new things when they are put on display and invite them to visit. If it was a big purchase, I will cjeck back in a few months to see if there are any problems. The promoter of the show likes that, the gallery likes that, and the customers appreciate it. Everybody is happy, and it is a good way to sell more stuff.

Re: Topic or Thread?

TDaniel

>Russ, I agree with your statements. However, I know a turner who is selling through craft fairs and I saw one of the pieces he sold that looked like green turned sweetgum but it was a bowl that was not of a style where warping would be desirable. I was reading in Ray Key's book that he feels anytime someone sells something that goes bad it hurts all turners. I think we should make this our topic for next Wed because I sense that some are experimenting with soap soaking and not allowing enough time to evaluate the results before putting the pieces on the market. Almost all of my work is sold from my shop and I warranty everything I sell but I do have a good number of people who stop in and then tell me about a piece they bought at a craft show which later went bad for various reasons and they do not know how to contact the person that sold it to them. Let's continue this topic so all sides of it can be addressed.

TD

No problem

Richard Allen

>Hi Terry

The thought that I am in some way responsible for the future sales of other woodturners work is...

"Let's set this up properly. You are not a turner but you are an art collector; you go to an art show and buy a piece that looks good from someone". This piece speaks to your soul and you find that you have no desire to add other woodturned art piece to your collection. Should the artist be held responsible for your lack of interest in additional woodturned art purchases?

Do people quit buying cars because of the Yugo?

Do people quit buying movies because of "The Cable Guy"?

Do people quit buying lathes because of Grizzly?

Do people quite buying chainsaws because of Poulan ? (it's a joke BubbaBob)

The problem is not with the LDD bowl sold before it's time. The problem is someplace else. The problem is likely with the economy. Woodturned art is a luxury. When the economy is doing great then, for many people, buying a pretty hunk of wood makes them feel good. When the economy is bad many people don't wish to go into debt to buy a hunk of wood no mater how pretty it is.

In fact that LDD bowl forms a good low end in woodturning. Think of it as pickle loaf. And a turning by Wally as roast beef. The buyer of the LLD bowl disaster could realize that they need to invest more to get roast beef, oops I mean Wally's bowl, than the LDD bowl.

Thanks

Richard

Re: Topic or Thread?

Arch

>Terry,

I suspect that this not so hypothetical art collector will be very pleased with his bargain find at the neighborhood sidewalk art show. He will add it to the pink flamingos in his yard and the velvet pictures beside the 'old masters' with the connected numbers propped up on the mantle. Meanwhild he's basking and feelng smug about the 'looks exactly like gold and almost like tiny diamonds' ear rings he presented with such a flourish and a huge bouquet of plastic roses to his adoring spouse for Valentine's. They are both happy and more power to them. I say don't mess with their domestic bliss as the turning warps and the 'little lady's ears turn green. Probably there's not an oranges solution to an apples question. IOW, He is an acquirer, not a collector. The turner is a hack not an artist. And as for the show ...well we shouldn't put our turnings out there in the first place. With tongue in cheek, Arch

POO-lan is ......

BubbaBob

>....never a cheap option,,,

Re: No problem

Ron Sardo in PA

>The problem is people may not differentiate between LDD and Wally's work. All they may see is "wood". (Sorry Wally - you know I'm a big fan of yours)

It's like trying to explain to somebody that the tree they cut down and split yesterday can't be used for turning green bowls today. Can't you hear them say, "Why Not - It's Just Wood?"

Most people don't care about the details. If they see a bowl they don't ask if its LDD or dried over a course of months/years. It's the artist responsibility to educate the buyer.

In reading Russ's post - I can't think of a better way to keep in touch with the buyer. Calling back after a few months is professionalism at it's best. Can you imagine a car dealer, movie maker or a lathe maker give you a call after a few months to see if you have any problems with their product and if their is a problem, offer a replacement/refund?

Re: Topic or Thread?

Mark Kauder, Phenix City, AL

>OK, I'll jump in.

First off, John Lucas, I would be interested in hearing your problems with Segmented Bowl. I think that we live in fairly similar climates (though I suspect that yours is drier outside, but you basement shop negates that fact). Being primarily a segmented turner at the moment, I am always worried about the changes in the wood that I use. I have done about 10 bowls here in Humid Alabama, and sent them as gifts to my relative in Phoenix, AZ (Parents and Brothers). Not a single problem yet - after about 2.5 years. BUT, I use 90% kiln dried wood (the exotics being the exception). My grain direction is almost always all going in the same direction..

Anyway, that was not TDs point.

Yes, I owe much to the customer, and much to my fellow woodturners. When one of my bowls is sold, the customer gets one of my business cards so that they can contact me. AND on the back is a list of cautions on how to "Care for Turned Wood Art"

1) Keep out of Direct Sunlight

2) Avoidd Climate extremes

3) Avoid prolonged exposure to water (you may wipe it with a damp cloth) - one customer sent a solid wood bowl back for refinish because it looked crummy after a cycle through the dishwasher!!

4) Avoid use of spray furniture wax - buff with a soft cloth and soft paste wax

5)m Contact me to restore the finish or to rejuvenate the finsh (for a fee)

The reason that I put all that there - They owe me something too - treat my work with respect.

I work in a corp office building that has a corp museum, with at least one painting worth over $1mil. They control the light and humidity very closely. None of the art is hung in a window.

If someone buys one of my peaces, and puts it in a hot, sunny window - not my problem.

If they treat it right, I will treat them right.

I recently went to one of the galleries selling some of my stuff. One of my first lacquered pieces that I am very fond of, was showing some bumps where the Maple and Cocobolo where moving differently (mostly because I don't think, in hindsight, the Cocobolo was quite dry enough). By the time I checked back again a week later, the lacquer had some fine cracks at the joints. So, I pulled the piece - even though someone might not have noticed - I noticed. I am now taking a couple of weeks to totally refinish this piece - I will keep it out of the gallery until I am sure that the piece is stable.

Yes, we owe our fellow turners (just as with the pricing discussion), we owe the customer a quality product, but the customer owes us fair treatment of our work as well.

An "Art Collector" would never buy a Van Gough and then hang it in a hot sunny window.

OK - Off my Soapbox.

Mark

Re: Topic or Thread?

TDaniel

>Mark, I think you have it nailed. Whether we want to admit it or not we all must be more quality consious if we are to promote our craft. One poor piece of work may cost many of us sales. Please check your work and stand behind it. If it warps, please give a refund or replace the piece. When you try a new procedure, test it before releasing it to the public. I find very few of the quick dry methods actually work well on all woods. Some may work on some woods but most do not. A test is absolutely necessary before releasing a piece for sale.

TD

Re: Topic or Thread?

Bill Hale / The Wood Spinner

>All are correct.

Tell how to care for it.

Give the buyer a card so they can contact you if there is a problem.

Sell properly aged pieces.

Promptly take care of customer problems.

If you do the above, as in any good business, even if there are problems they will not adversely effect the buyers faith and attitude about your turnings and the turnings of others.

Good turning and be safe

Bill

Re: Topic or Thread?

Bill Grumbine, Kutztown PA

>I've come in late on this, and I have read all the responses, but my take is fairly simple. No matter what the field of human endeavor, there are going to be honest people and there are going to be dishonest people. We can take it one step further and add in those who are not as competent as others. I am not as competent in what I do as a lot of people. That does not make me a bad person, but it does make my work suspect in some respects.

Any good businessman (or businesswoman) will take care of their customers to the best of their ability. That does not preclude and cannot prevent people who are dishonest or inefficient in their business practices. To try and impose an external control will not work. It has been tried in many places by many people. The marketplace will provide the answer again. Good craftspeople with good business practices will survive, and those who don't have both won't.

Bill