Questions about an old lathe

Re: Questions about an old lathe

mike recchione

>Jeremy,

You should be able to remove the chuck in one of two ways. If it's a friction fit, you should be able to knock it out with a knock-out bar. If it's threaded on like a faceplate, you should be able to unscrew it.

Most centers are friction fit, with morse tapered shanks that fit into a corresponding tapered hollow in the shaft. They won't chuck into a chuck very well because the shank is tapered, not straight.

To tension the first belt, maybe you can use a long screwdriver as a lever to hold the tension while you tighten the bolts back up. Otherwise, you need another pair of hands.

Nice looking lathe!

Re: Questions about an old lathe

Jeremy Osner

>When unscrewing the chuck, how do I go about immobilizing the rod that I am trying to unscrew it from? I can't seem to get a hold of it -- don't want to use a pipe wrench and scratch it up.

Re: Questions about an old lathe

Bill Grumbine, Kutztown PA

>Hi Jeremy

So you've been sucked in, eh? Congratulations on the new lathe. It looks like a real nice one you have there. I have found that by grabbing both sides of the belt with your free hand and squeezing it together you can produce quite a bit of force to keep the spindle from rotating. If that chuck has been on the spindle a long time, it may need a sharp rap to get it to loosen up. I would investigate it completely before using any excessive force to get it to move the way you think it should move though. Good luck with it.

Bill

Re: Questions about an old lathe

Jeremy Osner

>Thanks Bill -- that's a good idea to hold onto the belt.

Re: Questions about an old lathe

Bob Hackett

>The first thing I`d do is to unscrew the chuck from the spindle and check the size of the threads.This will let you know what accessories you can thread on directly or if you need an adapter.I`d save that 3 jaw chuck for machinist work as that`s most likely what it was designed for.If you look at the jaws I think you`ll find they have a straight profile where they mate up to the work.Turning chucks today use either a dovetail or a serated jaw to grip the work more securely.I don`t know how safe an engineering(machinist)chuck would be but I wouldn`t trust it unless it was holding a rather large tenon.

As for using a taper drive,most old lathes had tapers that were machined before things were standardized and went to a morse taper.You may luck out and have either a Morse or a Brown+sharpe taper.Borrow a friend`s morse taper drive,it most likely would be either a #1 or #2 morse.If you find the morse tapers don`t fit then the only thing I can think to do would be to bring the headstock down to the oldest machinist in your area and have him check the spindle taper and make an adapter for you.I`d recommend just an adapter to go from your taper to 5/8 round and use what`s available from Shopsmith.They offer alot of useful arbors with a 5/8 hole,and what they don`t offer the turning catalogs will.

Let me know if you have any other questions I might help you with.

Mainely,Bob

Re: Questions about an old lathe

Ernie Miller Topeka

>Give us some pictures of the chuck and head stock close up that way we might get a better idea. Is the shaft of the head stock hallow? no hugh that is what I thought try looking for a hex nut berried under the gunk I had an old dunlap that had the face plate and the spur drive heald on that way. Or it will be held on by threads they are reverse threads so they tighten when the lathe spins. if it is hallow then it will most likley be a taper. then it can be taped out with a bar. Give us close up pictures

Re: Questions about an old lathe

mike recchione

>Jeremy,

On my lathe there's a hole in the collar by the spindle that you can stick the knock-out bar into to lock the spindle while you tighten or loosen whatever's threaded on to it. I don't know if that's what the hole is for, but it would work for that.

- Mike

Re: Questions about an old lathe

Jeremy Osner

>I got the chuck off; and I also got the tail center out. I am assuming it has the same taper as what I need for the drive center. As near as I could read the scale on my calipers, it tapers from 0.375" diameter to 0.275" over a length of 1.4" -- is that a standard taper? The threads are roughly 1/32" wide and the troughs between them are roughly 1/16" wide. Is that the correct way to measure threads? I have never measured threads before.

Re: Questions about an old lathe

Fred L. - North Carolina

>Jeremy:

Measure the outside diameter of the spindle where the threads are. Then count the number of threads per inch.

The spindle's diamater could be a bit shy of the nominal measurement. For example, a 3/4" - 16 spindle will be just a hair under 3/4" diameter, and have 16 threads per inch.

I will look up the Morse taper specs if someone does not beat me to it, which is most likely...

You are getting there !!!

Fred

Re: Questions about an old lathe

Doug Leite

>Jerry

To measure the threads (it is measured in tpi, or threads per inch)get a good scale (ruler) and lay it on the spindle with the beginning mark on the crest (top) of a thread. Now count how many threads there is in 1 inch, beginning with the first thread that is after the first mark on the scale. That will be how many tpi your spindle is. The other measurement that you need is the diameter. Measure that with your caliper, or scale or whatever you have. If all else fails, drill different sized holes in a piece of wood and slip it onto the spindle and see which hole fits. The threads will be designated by dia-tpi, for example 1" dia and 8 tpi will be called 1"-8. I will check on the taper shortly and post again.

Aloha

Doug

Re: Questions about an old lathe

Jeremy Osner

>Well it seems to be 1/2" diameter and 12 tpi. The 12 tpi is an extrapolation -- there is only 1/2" worth of threads but I count 6 of them in that length.

Re: Questions about an old lathe

Doug Leite

>Jerry,

About that taper, If your measurements are close, that taper is very steep at .857" of taper per foot of length. Morse tapers are approx 5/8" (.625) taper per ft.(tpf). Other machine tapers are Brown & Sharpe @ 1/2" tpf and Jarno. A Jarno #3 would measure 3/8" (.375) at the big end and .300 at the small end and would be 1 1/2" long.If that is what you really have, I don't think that you will find anything to fit it.

Aloha

Doug

Re: Questions about an old lathe

Jeremy Osner

>Hmm, that's discouraging. I will try and get hold of a Morse taper center to double check my measuring. Is it possible to get a drive center that threads onto the spindle instead of taper?

Re: Spindle size

Mark Mandell - Gone Round in New Jersey

>Jeremy,

If you spindle is, indeed, 1/2 x 12 (I suspect it to be a standard National Course thread of 1/2 x 13) you will save yourself much grief if you just trot down to a local machine shop, explain your problem, and ask the nice man to make you a 1/2x12 (or 12)female to 1" by 8 male adapter. Have him incorporate 2 set screw holes that you can use to lock the adapter on the spindle thread. That should cost you no more than $30 (unless you want it yesterday), and you'll then be set to put on both a spin-on spur drive or a good 4-jaw chuck. Be sure to accurately measure the spindle from the end of the threads to it shoulder as the machine shop will need that measurement.

Good Luck!

Mark Mandell

drop the 2 for e-mail

Re: Spindle size

Jeremy Osner

>Thanks Mark -- that sounds like a good plan. I will check into finding a machine shop.

Definately machine shop time

Bob Hackett

>As stated,an adapter is in order.Look at afew turning supply sites and see what woodturning chucks look like.Pay close attention to the thread sizes available,most larger attachments will come in at 8 threads per inch(TPI) configuration with 1 1/2" diameter being about the largest.Most chucks today come with adapters so when you go to a larger lathe(and you will)you just get a new adapter instead of a new chuck.I`d size my adapter to a common size(like 1"-8)and be sure and have the machinist make the adapter with a flange or shoulder that attachments can thread up against.The flange is what secures the attachment rather than the threads.You can get some input here as to length of threaded portion of the adapter once you decide what thread size you`re going for.

Take the tailstock center and try it in the headstock(make sure you have a knockout bar handy first).If it fits use it as a pattern to get another adapter made with a 5/8 round stub.This adapter will allow you to use pretty much everything available for a Shopsmith.This would include drives,arbors for grinding wheels and saw blades,a large sanding disk,Jacobs chuck,etc.It`s handy and cheap,I`m sure you get the picture.

You did check the headstock bearings didn`t you?Check them both for radial(up/down)and end play(in/out).End play can sometimes be adjusted out,depending on what type of bearing.Radial play means replacement time.

You may be able to find out more about your particular lathe either from the manufacturer or one of the sites for old tools here on the web.Just getting an exploded drawing of your machine can be a big help as these are usually very detailed.

What you`re going thru is just what pretty much all turners did before folks like Oneway and Stubby came along.We picked up either pattern maker`s or machinist`s lathes andmodified them to suit our needs.Look at Mark Lindquist`s book"Sculpting Wood"if you want to see an excellent example of this type of work taken to extremes.

Mainely,Bob

Re: Definately machine shop time

Jeremy Osner

>Thanks Bob -- could you go into more detail about checking the bearings? I pulled a bit at the head stock and it did not move from side to side -- is there a more detailed check I should do?

I was thinking about using the chuck that came with the lathe and files, to copy the taper of the tail center in a soft piece of metal.

Also I called the guy who sold me the lathe and he said oh yeah, there was a can of parts with it -- He is going to dig that up and send it along to me, I expect there is a drive center in it.

Re: Definately machine shop time

Bob Hackett

>The can of parts is a definate plus,I`d scoop it up quickly.I`d also ask if there was a compound crosslide meant for machining use anywhere.This would allow you to solve most of the problems yourself and greatly expand your capabilities with both wood and metal.

I`m assuming there`s a hole thru the headstock spindle.If you make a tapered adapter I`d start with 5/8 cold rolled steel available at most hardware stores and welding supply houses in 3 foot lengths.If you have little or no machining experience then I`d have the local experts make one for you.This thing needs to be right.It also needs to be tapped at the small end for the largest size threaded rod that will fit in the hole in your spindle.When in place screw a nut on the end of the rod to hold it into the spindle.This system is called a drawbar and will keep whatever you have spinning from doing annoying things like coming off and chasing you when you least expect it.

If you really feel as though you want to tackle machining on your own,I`d assemble all the parts the previous owner gives you and post a pic.When we see what you have we can better steer you in the right direction and away from disaster.The key here is to have fun,learn new skills and yet avoid injury.

Mainely,Bob-Who needs to quit buying rust and buy a digital camera instead,that way Todd O. can post the pics I send him.;^)

Re: Questions about an old lathe

Mike DeHart, South Jersey

>Congrats! That is a nice piece of cast ahrn you have there. I will try to answer your questions the best that I can.

Removing the chuck- You already did that so you know how. To keep the spindle from turning while you break the chuck loose you might try using a short piece of metal pipe as a lever. Put the spindle drive belt on its largest sheave, place the pipe between the headstock casting and the belt in the sheave. Pry up with the pipe just hard enough to pinch the belt tight enough to keep the spindle from spinning as you break loose the chuck (or faceplate, or...) This is how I change chucks on my small machine lathe. Don't pry any harder than it takes to pinch the spindle. You don't want to bend or break the casting or the spindle. Put a piece of plywood on the bedway under the chuck before you remove it. Dropped chucks damage bedways. DAMHIKT!

Motor belt tension- You are a woodworker. Cut a wooden wedge and some blocks that you can jam in between the two pulleys. This will hold the tension while you tighten the motor bolts.

Drive spur- You might get lucky with the extra can of parts. If not, you have some options here. You could get a drive spur with a straight shank and hold that in the chuck. Make one by cutting the taper shank off of a common drive spur. The spur itself has a straight body that will chuck. Put a wood block spacer behind it so the thrust doesn't drive the spur head deeper into the chuck jaws.

You could have a local machinist make you a spur with the right taper. For a similar cost he might be able to make you a new headstock spindle with "standard" threads and taper which would allow you to get other accessories as you please.

You could try to make your own taper. I have done this to make a small spur for a tailstock center. I used a machine lathe and had a hard time getting the taper right. Turning metal with a file is an exercise in frustration. Getting your surface straight is hard to do. Maintaining roundness of the part is even harder.

Other bits- Chech the headstock bearings for looseness. stick a steel rod into the spindle and pull it straight up and down. Assuming bronze bushings, you should have (ideally) a couple thousandths of play. If you have lots of play up and down, like 1/16" for example, the spindle will jump as you try to turn things. This translates into chatter and catches. Bronze bushings are cheap and easy to cahnge. You may have to ream them to finish size after pressing them in. Reamers are also cheap.

Mark's suggestion of having a thread adapter made is good except for the part about the set screws. You do not want to lock anything to the spindle by turning set screws into the spindle threads. The set screw will mash the spindle threads the first time you tighten it. You may not be able to unthread the adapter. A standard right hand thread will be self tightening when the lathe turns the way it should. No need to bugger up your spindle.

Re: Questions about an old lathe

Jeremy Osner

>Thanks for the tips -- looks like I have a lot to get up to speed on!

Re: Questions about an old lathe

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>Jeremy,

Just back into town from a vacation. Some random thoughts on the lathe:

1. If you're going to get some machine work done, don't be shocked if you can't easily find a shop that doesn't have a minimum charge that will shock you.

2. If the machine shops want too much and there's a local community college with a machining curriculum, you might find out if you can arrange for your work to become a project for some student -- much less expensive.

3. If you're going to get machine work done, consider whether it will make more sense to just make up a new spindle with more commonly available tapers and thread patterns.

4. Mike discussed how to check bronze bushings. If you've got ball bearings instead, the wiggle test is really only useful for major problems; for smaller but still significant issues, you test by loosening up the belt and spinning the spindle, listening for crunching sounds and feeling for roughness. YOu can tell whether you've got bushings or bearings by cleaning up around the spindle where it goes into the castings and looking. If you're not familiar with bearings/bushings, go to your local hardware store and look at some examples; most good hardware stores sell both.

5. If you go the adapter-to-5/8" shaft approach, be sure that the flat on the shaft against which the setscrew on the fittings will seat is filed so that it tapers back toward the shoulder -- the flat will start very narrow at the extreme end of the spindle and get wider as it goes back toward the shoulder. This encourages the fitting to seat firmly against the shoulder and reduces chatter. My first lathe, a $10 Duro, had a regular flat, in axis with the spindle, and everything chattered like mad. I wouldn't recommend this "flat" approach for faceplates, as even with the tapered flat, I think you'd get chatter.

6. If you do have 1/2" - 12 threads, by the way, you've got National Fine threads for which you can easily get regular fine-thread nuts, taps, and other stuff that would permit you to make up a lot of your own fittings without any problems.

That's a pretty little lathe, and woodturning is a slippery slope all its own.

Re: Spindle size

Jeremy Osner

>Doh! Well it turns out I was misreading my scale. The diameter of the spindle is 5/8", I am just about 100% sure I've got that right now; and the thread count looks like 10 or 11 tpi. Does that change my course of action? I'm looking over at Woodturnerscatalog to see if that will fit many accessories but they don't seem to list the spindle size with the faceplates. So I did a Goole search and the string "5/8 X 11 spindle" seems to get quite a few hits, which is kind of encouraging.

Re: Spindle size

Bob Hackett

>The easiest way to check for a 5/8-11 spindle thread would be to go down to the Borg or the local hardware and get a common 5/8 coarse nut.It`ll be 5/8-11.Things may have just become alot easier for you if this is the case.

Mainely,Bob

Tightening belts

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

>One of the tricks I've used in tightening belts on motors that are bolted down is to tighten one bolt pretty firmly, and then kind of pivot the motor around that while tightening the opposite bolt. You have to be careful not to get the pulleys out of alignment when doing this.