Shellac Question

Re: Shellac Question

I watched this video a couple days ago 

Re: Shellac Question

Thanks, Kevin.  Yes, that's a good video.  I remember watching it a (quite) while ago but it was not one of the ones I'd viewed recently so I appreciated the refresher on Stumpy's take on shellac.  I would say, however, that it still leaves me mystified as to why I'm not getting the kind of amber/reddish colored shellac that I was expecting out of this process...and especially that its murky and not clear.  Stumpy says the flakes should be fine if stored in a dark, relatively cool place (which they were), if you're using the right kind of alcohol and if you got the right ratio of flakes to alcohol.  I feel like I've checked all the boxes, but I must be missing something.

Re: Shellac Question

This is a bag of shellac flakes you have used before with no problem, or 1st time with this bag?

Re: Shellac Question

Could this be a higher wax content than you have bought before?

Have you always used the magnetic stirrer?

I am currently in the midst of using a can of Zinsser Amber and it does have some non-dissolved cloudiness to it. It dries OK and dries clear so I keep using it. As with any finish, a test piece makes sense and may help to ease your mind before using on something precious to you.

Re: Shellac Question

add about 5% acetone or any other ketone and see if it clears.  

Re: Shellac Question

Hi Don....this is a bag I've used before with no problem.

Dave

Re: Shellac Question

Hi Steve -

I realized after I'd made my initial most that it didn't mention that this was de-waxed shellac...which it is.  Testing it makes sense.  I did end up adding more of the ethyl alcohol to see if that made a difference, and it didn't as best I could tell.

Dave

Re: Shellac Question

Hi Bill -

This is why I love checking in with you all.  I don't think I've seen a suggestion like this in my reading on the topic.  I certainly don't mind experimenting with acetone and I don't know enough about chemistry to have any idea about how ketones and alcohol relate/interact.  But I think I'll try Steve's suggestion and test it out first to see if the cloudiness affects the appearance when it's applied...before opting to go the acetone route.  I like having options to explore.

Thanks!

Re: Shellac Question

Ketone is a better solvent. If there is something marginally soluble in alcohol it might go into solution with a little help.  

What I would try it on......

would be a piece of glass to see if it dried like a delustered finish, or not.  If the cloudy makes a cloudy thin film it will be hard to detect on wood.  

Re: Another Shellac Question

I think Dave got his answers so I will piggyback….

Question:  What is your favorite denatured alcohol?  For years, I have used Kleanstrip Green Stripe.  I went looking for it, with the thought of suggesting it to Dave.  It is no longer available;  Kleanstrip has discontinued.  It’s too bad, because Green Stripe was consistently faster—by a lot—than the competition.  What are you folks using?

Wiley

Re: Another Shellac Question

Green Stripe was consistently faster..........what does faster mean?

Re: Another Shellac Question

Dissolved flakes faster.  Like it was drier than the Ace Hdwe gallon-can offering.

alcohol and its water content

Ethanol derived from fermentation will be "green", possibly fit for consumption and it will contain 5% water is a result of the fact that chemistry causes 5% water to be part of the ethanol vapor leaving the boiling fermentation liquid.  Hence, what condenses will contain 5% water.   It is possible, but costly, to dry this ethanol with further processing which will render it not food grade because of small amounts of other chemicals that may be present that were used in the drying.  (In the lab benzene is used for drying)

Ethanol made from ethane will be 100% ethanol. 

"Alcohol" in a can from Lowes seems to be a mix of ethanol and methanol.  It is a mix for reasons I do not understand.  This mix suggests the material is not a result of fermentation and I would guess it contains little if any water.    

It is unknown to me how quickly these three solvents will dissolve shellac.  It would be a good experiment to have results from. 

There are other solvents for shellac. 

Dissolving things with the property of shellac is a common need.  The problem is the viscous layer that forms on the surface of the particles is slow to break up without high shear.  There are two approaches:  Gentle mixing for a long time.  High shear mixing for a short time.   I am left wondering whether a battery operated stick blender would hasten dissolution.  

Re: alcohol and its water content

How about a coffee grinder?

If I need shellac in a hurry, I use Don Williams' lemon shellac flour. It is already ground into a fine powder and dissolves almost instantly.

I try to avoid getting any methanol (wood alcohol) on my skin or in my lungs. I dissolve shellac in either Everclear or Behcol. Behcol is denatured with isobutanol, which will probab;y upset your stomach (and teach you a lesson), but at least it won't make you blind or pickle your little grey cells.

Re: alcohol and its water content

The methanol is added as a way to make "denatured alcohol" poisonous. As a side effect, it also makes it cheaper since one is not paying federal and state liquor taxes.

methanol

5% could be a denaturing agent.  50% has another reason to be there.  

Re: methanol

I haven't been in that aisle in Lowes in a very long time. I had no idea that the mix you were referring to was in the 50% range.

sds Kleen Strip

To know what is in stuff fetch the sds for the product.   I find it amusing that the exact information is "being withheld as a trade secret".  What crap.  It would take a typical chemistry lab 10 minutes to know everything in this product.  Why this stuff is not mostly ethanol is a mystery to me.  

Re: Another Shellac Question

Hey Wiley, I have been using isopropyl alcohol. It comes in different grades but the 99% is not expensive and easier to obtain than everclear. I use tiny amounts of shellac so I can't really say it's better than other things, but it works for me.

Isopropanol

For better or worse it dries much slower.  This property can be an advantage to avoid water condensation when spraying in humid conditions. And slow drying aids leveling.  

Re: Another Shellac Question

Thanks all!  Several things in here that were news to me—Bill’s sds on Kleen-strip, Steve’s isopropanol, Bill’s different mfg processes(I thought it was all 95% ethanol).  On balance, next batch I make up will come with trip to liquor store (assuming CA hasn’t outlawed everclear, which would not surprise me).

Thanks again!  W

Re: Isopropanol

Bill, that's really interesting. I hadn't thought about it, because before I bought the isopropyl I hadn't used shellac for a couple years, but now that you mention it, it really is slower drying, which for me just meant it was noticeably easier to apply (wiping on), and it definitely levels better.

Re: Isopropanol

The isobutanol that is added to Behcol has a similar effect. Since butyl alcohols are heavier molecules than propyl alcohols, if added in the same proportions, the shellac should be even slower drying and better leveling. Of course, that doesn't tell you which you should use. It doesn't provide price or availability comparisons, but it might help with thinning proportions if you are familiar with using one and are suddenly faced with the necessity to use another.