diamond film "grits"

Re: diamond film "grits"

roger lance

Eliot.....go to Lee Valley.....look up diamond lapping film.....54K9630.....hopefully, it's the same thing.

Re: diamond film "grits"

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I have some 3M films filed away that I will check. I do not recall a color code on them. Paste is color coded. Are the codes the same as for film.....I don't know. You can find the paste codes from places selling into the metal finishing and lapidary trade.

3M film code

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Re: 3M film code

eliot feldman

Thank you Roger and Bill. Looks like mine are 6.0 for the brown, 1.0 for the violet, 0.5 for the grey, and 0.1 for the green -- microns. I had better write it down this time!

BTW

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I looked into other diamond products and there seems to be no correlation of color and particle size between different kinds of diamond abrasive, or even among manufacturers of paste.

Re: BTW

eliot feldman

So, unless what I have is 3M, the color you showed may not indicate what I have, after all? I really don't know where I got what I have -- Lee Valley, 3M, ???. Maybe I should just spring for a new set from Lee Valley and write down what I get from them. I feel kind of silly lapping something on one of these and then inadvertently going back to a larger size abrasive, then to some other random size ,etc.

reply

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I found my 3M films. They have "3M" plastered all over the sheet. I guess that is the only fact we know for sure, your's aren't 3M. Before I gave up on them I would polish a chisel or plane blade or ??. Then scratch the polished surface with each and see if I could visually grade them. Even if you did two you might tell if the color code seemed to match 3M. Anything 15 u or coarser will cut faster than anything you ever experienced. I'm not exaggerating. 1 micron with be a dull mirror.

PS

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

As a practical matter, for sharpening 1 micron is as low as you ever need to go. 6 micron will take the scratches out from wheel grinding quickly.

Re: PS

eliot feldman

I polished up a chisel to a mirror shine using a powered hard felt wheel, and then did as you suggested. The green film, which I thought might be the finest, caused a lot of scratches; whereas the brown, which I thought was coarser, around 6 microns, took those scratches out. Now ... ..I don't know if the brown is finest or if it is actually not so fine, and that's what's needed to take out the scratches caused by the green (!!).

Re: diamond film "grits"

eliot feldman

I found the original notes. Originally these diamond films were: Orange(15 microns); Pink(3 microns); Beige(0.5); and Green(0.1). These morphed into Grey, Violet, Brown, and Dark Green, which are the muted colors that I have now. I believe what happened is that the metal filings are essentially a blue grey. So blue + orange = grey; blue + pink = violet; blue + beige = brown; and blue + green = dark green. What I will do for a sharpening regimen is to start with the CBN wheel, move to the fine Spyderco(6 micron)and super fine Spyderco(3 micron) stones, and then have some fun with these diamond films. Thanks to Roger and Bill for their suggestions. BTW, for anyone interested, I also found some ancient lubricant for these films; it's called Polylube Lapping Lube (Cat. No. PDL-3000.) The bottle says, " ideal extender for diamond pastes or polycrystalline diamond suspensions."

Wrong lube

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

That lube is for loose diamond, especially paste, to be applied to cast iron. Just use water on the films or water and a smidgen of soap.

15 micron will cut the most abrasive steel you own with speed you have never experienced. You can go straight from there to 1 micron, probably 0.5. I don't have any diamond less than 1. I don't regard 0.1 is useful for sharpening. You can likely go from your wheel to 6 micron and maybe 3.

Re: Wrong lube

eliot feldman

Can you say why it's the wrong lube? I do bow to you experience, but I am following an also very experienced fellow, David Barnett, who was active on this site in 2012; and he recommended this lube. ( I wonder if he is still around.) In what way would water and a bit of soap be superior? I suppose I should try it, but then I would be mixing oil and water. Can you say why 0.1 microns is not a sharpening medium? (I tend to agree that something that superfine seems overkill, but then what is it use for?)

Re: Wrong lube

eliot feldman

The plot thickens! I contacted Pace Technologies and spoke with their chief guy for the North East, Chris Harriman. He was extremely helpful. And it turns out that they actually have me in their system. And I also looked them up on their website. SO.... I now believe that what I said about grit size may be mostly wrong. It may well be, despite what I wrote down ten years ago, that the abrasive sizes I have are Green(30 microns), Grey(15 microns), Brown(3 microns), and Violet(1 micron). These sizes make a lot more sense for sharpening. (I am probably right, though, that my grey was indeed originally orange, and that its original orange color did morph into grey.) As for this PDL-3000 Polylube, there's nothing wrong with using it on diamond film, even though as Bill says, it is made for use with diamond paste; and, indeed, water will work fine with the diamond films. And again, Bill is right: something as fine as 0.1 is not used for sharpening. It's used, among other things, in the metallography world.

Re: Wrong lube

Bruce, a MN Galoot

I go right from the wheel to 3 μm diamond, I don’t have 5 μm paste.

And no, Eliot, David Barnett is no longer with us.

more lube

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Paste is typically applied to cast iron. So a paste lube would be expected to go on cast iron , not Mylar, to help disperse the paste. So, different function (dispersing thick paste) and different substrate to be lubricated.

Personally, these films are not cheap. I would not risk using cast iron paste lube for fear of some incompatibility. Given that water works great, I would not take the chance.

That said, I only use oil pastes. I would be especially wary of applying an oil paste lube to Mylar. But, there are water based pastes. I would not be so worried about applying water based lube to Mylar.

Less than 1 micron is to put a mirror polish on metal.

Eliot, do this

Bruce McCrory

I go right from the wheel to 3 μm diamond, I don’t have 5 μm paste.

Bruce, the other Bruce, is correct. You obsess too much, Eliot. Each succeeding grit you go to in a sharpening regimine equals totally screwing up the edge. Your blade edge needs to be sharp (and sharpened) at the TIP.

That tip is about as fine as you can('t) see with native, un-aided vision. There is no room for more than one abrasive following a wheel.

That, and a strop. When the edge gets dull, use the strop, and for the next couple or three touchups.

BTW, if your wood has sat for a length of time, dust, dirt, and the filings from your sharpening regimine will dull blade edges quickly.

We Bruces need to stick together 

I don't understand

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

There is no room for more than one abrasive following a wheel.

What does this statement mean?

I hollow grind with wheel, followed by a fine fixed diamond plate, then 1 micron loose diamond on cast iron. The idea is for each successive abrasive to take out the scratches from the previous. For some arbitrary reason my final target is 1 micron. The fixed diamond plate is about 15 micron equivalent. Why do you claim I can't/shouldn't do two smaller grits beyond the wheel?

Re: Eliot, do this

eliot feldman

What you say feels right. The chisel that I have been experimenting with seems sharp but it doesn't seem to get sharper as I go to finer and finer abrasives ( I don't understand why not.) I suppose I have a lot to learn about sharpening. (But I do get fine results at the wood.) Perhaps just the CBN wheel and the 3 micron superfine Spyderco, then? I know I'm obsessive. I keep remembering a video where Paul Sellers tunes up his No. 4 plane and then gets good shavings when pulling it on a string across the board!

Re: Eliot, do this

Bruce, a MN Galoot

The very best woodworker I’ve ever seen sharpens his tools with an 800 grit King stone. He says if you need to use something more, you don’t know what you’re doing. Obviously I don’t.

I will go to 1 micron paste on cast iron (like Bill T, because of Bill T, who introduced me to it) if I want to split atoms. I usually stop at 3 microns. I would not make the jump from my grinding wheel (3500 rpm, 100 grit white stone, because that’s what I have and I’m too cheap to upgrade) straight to 1 micron, that’s too much.

Just pick a method, learn it, stick with it. Diamond paste on cast iron did that for me.

What may not be obvious

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I never power wheel grind to the edge. Once I get an edge straight and orthogonal to the sides I don't want to risk it getting wonky by the wheel. Hence, I need a grit following the wheel that will remove the wear at the tip. A fine diamond stone works for me. 15 micron paste on cast iron would be faster, but then what to do next. 15 micron particles will carry over to the 1 micron plate.

don't understand (Eliot too)

Bruce McCrory

There is no room for more than one abrasive following a wheel.

What does this statement mean?

The point of my suggestion is to affirm Bruce's comment for limited grits. You don't need more than one or two honing grits following grinding on a wheel. And, a neophyte having trouble creating a sharp edge doesn't want to spend time dulling the new edge on various stones due to a random mistake.

Reduce the potential for error by limiting the sequence of stones while sharpening.

Additionally,....

Bill, you need to see Derek's sharpened tools. I suppose he also goes through a series of grits, but what he sent me--and I sliced my finger on while testing--may have been a .25mm of polish at the tip after grinding on the CBN wheel he uses.

The results also reflect Derek's insistence upon only a few strokes over each grit of stone he uses.

Neophytes are obsessed with grinding stones and grinding more when they can't get a sharp edge. In one sitting I could go through the entire hollow from a grinder and have a polished flat ... that was still dull. Of the four, or so, stones I used, I knew when I nicked an edge; the third stone, usually an 8000 water stone. And, it was so slight. Pushing into the edge.

No, Weaver's Unicorn Method that you and others supported and helped make universal is really all that one having trouble needs when sharpening. I'll just add, "keep it simple, and quick!"

Go ahead and elaborate, or get detailed and add to the list of abrasives, but realize the poor sap is blindly following your example. His next failure is probably on you; or, me.

Re: What may not be obvious

eliot feldman

I use the holding bar and tool clamp originally designed for the Tormek setup, but now moved over to the CBN wheel. It keeps the tool edge absolutely parallel to the face of the wheel, once it's set up properly. So I do grind right up into the edge. I don't get any "wonkiness" -- but I suppose it could happen.

Re: What may not be obvious

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I am grinding free hand on a crowned wheel.