I've been wondering

Re: I've been wondering

Warren in Lancaster, PA

What we usually don't do by hand is to try to emulate machine work.

Rapid amputation

Re: I've been wondering

Wiley Horne

Stopped grooves, rabbets, or dados. But as Warren says, with hand tools you use a different joinery logic so that you avoid stopped cuts, but still fill the through cuts made with plough, rabbet, or dado plane.

Wiley

Re: I've been wondering

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

It's probably fair to say that hand tool workers can do just about anything that can be done on a machine-- leaving aside the speed, physical effort, etc, issues. I keep thinking, though, is there anything that the machine guys can do that just can't be done by hand?

The only thing I came up with (aside from lather turning) seems to be cutting a long t-slot from one piece of wood -- even with a router plane. Am I right about that? Are there any others?

Eliot, hand tools are wonderful workers in the hands of those capable of using them. There are many tasks which power tools can do more reliably and accurately in the hands of those who are not proficient with hand tools. This makes it easier for beginners to emulate the work of experienced woodworkers. Tools such as Dominos, Biscuit joiners, Routers and, more recently, CNC machines such as the Shaper Origin, make it easier to produce joinery without the steep learning curve of hand tools.

Further, power tools can do repeated cuts more efficiently and accurately than hand tools. In a fraction of the time. Clearly, power tools are capable of removing the drudgery of stock preparation, which is not really the essence of furniture building - in my opinion (design and joinery is so).

Some will argue that hand tools do not limit a design as do power tools. Again, in my opinion, this is a rationalisation that hand tools are superior to power tools. There are indeed skills such as intricate mouldings, carving and edge treatments that a machine will create differently. But, by-and-large, good design is not limited by power tool use, but by the experience and ability of the woodworker. I see too many examples of poor design by both hand- and power users.

Someone is going to argue that furniture styles, such as Danish Mid Century, were/are essentially designed for mass production and power tools. However, there are equally simple styles, such as Japanese and Shaker, made either with hand tools or a combination of hand and power. I know many furniture makers building high quality Chippendale or Queen Anne with powered equipment.

At the end of the day, I find there is no need to take "sides", as though one does better than the other. Power and hand tools should be complimentary. Both have challenges to master and, when one knows where to choose, one will offer an advantage over the other.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: I've been wondering

Steve D, in CT

Machines make repetition easy. It can be as simple as quickly matching the length of 4 legs or 100 by cutting against a stop.

Hand tool woodworking aids in machine working IMO by teaching a woodworker what is important or not. For example, in gluing panels, planing to finished thickness is not a good idea because even with biscuits the edges will need cleanup. Also, parallelism of the boards isn't critical, only the finished panel.

I have to question the Shaper Origin being able to easily produce joinery. It looks like the most difficult way to produce a joint and I would vote it "Tool Most Likely to Sit On a Shelf." It does make the Festool Domino look like a bargain though. I could see a place for that cutting shapes on sheet goods precisely but wouldn't trust it to cut a valuable piece of work.

It's the AutoSet Plane of power tools.

I think this misses the point...

John in New Mexico

The entire point of machine work is speed of production and reduction of physical effort. There is no reason to take that out of the equation - it's like removing dt from a differential equation involving time, you get nonsense.

I personally find a trade off in precision working with machines, but that has more to do with my machines and lack of fussiness when using them than any abstract capability of machines in general. A CNC machinist friend of mine could do far more precise machining in wood than I can do by hand for example - it all depends on the machine's capabilities and the mind controlling it.

As Derek says, there is no reason for the two methods of work, or the much more common hybrid of both, to be at odds with each other. None of these approaches are without both advantages and disadvantages, and its up to each of us to tailor our own working methods to suit our needs and maximize our enjoyment of the work.

Re: I think this misses the point...

eliot feldman

I really wasn't trying to compare machine vs hand tool work. I was simply engaging in a mental exercise. For example, specifically, is it possible to make a t-track from one piece of wood with hand tools? And , if it's not possible, are there any other builds that you can think of which can be done with machine tools but not hand tools. It's just a kind of puzzle. The reverse question is just as interesting , as a kind of puzzle also: Is there something that you can make with hand tools that you cannot make with machine tools? The philosophy of machine tool work vs hand tool work is obviously a large question that I wasn't trying to get at.

Re: I've been wondering

Charlie

You'll enjoy these videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd47htrQI_s

Re: I think this misses the point...

Jack Dover

there is no reason for the two methods of work, or the much more common hybrid of both, to be at odds with each other.

The thing is, though, that there aren't two methods of work. If we would reflect on this even for a bit we would quickly realize that we don't know where to draw a line that separates hand work from machine work. E.g. is a treadle table saw a power tool or a hand tool? What about a flex shaft carver, is it a power tool or a hand tool? It's pretty much "carpentry vs cabinetmaking", it's a spectrum and, unlike the color spectrum, there are no points on it that are "pure", they can't really form an opposition.

Re: I think this misses the point...

Jack Dover

For example, specifically, is it possible to make a t-track from one piece of wood with hand tools?

Technically it's possible. There are moldings where a hollow forms pretty much a T-track, except it's not rectangular, but rounded. Those moldings were all single piece, this element was used very often in Dutch furniture, both fine and vernacular. It was cut with a set of special planes, I think it's totally possible to have a square profile on these.

It's just this T-track is kinda special. It works best in plywood, otherwise there's a weak spot, a dovetail slot has many clear advantages. T-track primary purpose is rarely a construction element, most of the time it's a part of a machine or a jig for a machine. It's designed to match a machine made part - a bolt, and so on.

It's easy to find things that could be done on a machine only. A perfect rip cut in 8/4 hardwood, crosscutting with 1/64" length tolerance on hundreds or thousands of pieces, lock rabbets, finger joints (not the box corner type) and so on.

It's equally easy to find something possible by hand only though.

Re: I think this misses the point...

William Duffield

For something you can not do by machine, do a search for the work of the Garvan Carver or Grinling Gibbons or W. Patrick Edwards. While understanding their artistry, it is essential that you appreciate that no boring cookie cutters were involved: Each and every cut is different and involves the workmanship of risk and yet is elegantly shaped and in the right place with respect to the form being created and in relationship to all the other adjoining forms. Another process your machines can't do is restoration work on damaged hand made antiques.

Re: Workmanship of Risk

William Duffield

To find the important differences, I suggest you read David Pye, "The Nature and Art of Workmanship". Warning: It is not easy reading.

Re: I've been wondering

John Jardin

Absolute wisdom on the question.

Thank You Derek

Re: I've been wondering

eliot feldman

Yes, I did! More like a kind of sculpture.

Re: I've been wondering

Charlie

Here are power tools being used very artfully to make stairway handrailing. Make sure to watch the making of the wreath -- watch the whole video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_t3PtrcCUQ

That is just the sloppiness of English

John in New Mexico

Or any other language in all probability, they all have semantics.

A powered tool that you hold in your hand is, by language rules, both a hand tool and a power tool. But hand tool users on this forum are likely to call it a power tool. Tools that are powered by the human body (and thus pre-industrial revolution) are usually considered hand tools I expect.

One can argue over the semantics of course, but its just how we prefer to use language and nothing much to do with how we approach woodworking. Too bad Stephen Shepherd is no longer with us, I would imagine he would have a worthwhile opinion on this, having been a complete hand tool woodworker as far as I know.

fair enough...

John in New Mexico

and I think I have an answer for you - power tools generally cannot duplicate tool marks left on wood by hand tools. Everything else they can do, though not always as well or perhaps I should say as efficiently.

I would venture to say that you can do pretty much everything a machine can do with a hand tool. You might have to invent one, but you can do it. You probably wouldn't want to cut a T-slot with a hand tool, but its certainly possible.

Re: I've been wondering

William Duffield

(aside from lather[sic] turning)

There are treadle lathes, great wheel lathes, and spring pole lathes that do not rely on power to rotate stock to be turned. Warren uses a treadle lathe professionally. I've turned on a great wheel lathe built by my wife's high school shop instructor. There are at least two others just like it that I know of.

Yes, I'd rather turn on an electrically powered lathe, but since the cutting tools are the same, and the presentation of the tool to the wood is totally manual, you should be able to do the same work with either, with one exception. With a spring pole lathe, you can turn less than 360° and can control how many degrees around the stock you turn and how many degrees you skip. This allows you to turn vessels with handles and with pouring spouts, which would be very difficult to do with a powered lathe. I suppose you could make them with a 3D printer, but not in wood.

Re: I've been wondering

eliot feldman

Unbelievable! Reminds me a little of Sam Maloof. The guy is really a sculptor. And you have made your point!

Re: I've been wondering

Charlie

The skill in the handrailing (and that was a relatively simple job) was in the layout. It had little to do with the tools used to remove superfluous wood.

Re: I've been wondering

Charlie

I doubt seriously this is the case with Warren, but I know a guy who turns with a foot powered lathe and he can produce the most beautiful and pristine surfaces, straight off the tool, of the ugliest things I've ever seen come off a lathe. Overwrought, over-embellished garbage just to see if he can turn the surface clean with difficult profiles and odd juxtapositions of difficult-to-turn woods.

Not everybody is born an artist.

Re: I've been wondering

eliot feldman

It never occurred to me that with a pole lathe one could indeed turn part way around the piece to make, as you say, a pouring spout. No matter how good a turner you are, I don't see how that could be done with any other lathe. This was the kind of example I was looking for -- not really any discussions of hand vs power.

No need for printing...

John in New Mexico

You could do spouts and handles on a CNC router or mill if so inclined, you just need a rotary axis for it. The difficult part in CNC is the programming, something CNC vendors neglect to mention. Hence most hobbyists stick to 2D and 2.5D work where the programming is relatively easy with inexpensive software.

One could build a lathe that mimics the pole lathe action but is powered by a motor rather than the foot and spring pole, but it would not be worth the effort, just as hand cutting the T-slot Eliot suggested would not be worth the effort.

There is nothing magical about machines & tools, regardless of their power source. You could design a process using either hand tools or machines for just about any task - usually the lack of a ready example for one or the other indicates a lack of need rather than a lack of ability.

No one needs an industrial pole lathe turning out wooden pitchers, what little market exists is likely supplied by people doing it the old way for fun as much as any profit. There is likewise little demand for undercutting router planes because anyone wishing to cut a T slot is generally a power tool user and will just buy a bit for their router.