Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge
Frame & Panel - Dates
Curt Putnam
About when did the concept of frame & panel become common in English casework?
I ask because I have a 17th century chest which has been dated to ~1650. I might be able to put an upper limit on the error margin by knowing when frame & panel entered general usage.
Thank you historians!
Re: Frame & Panel - Dates
Warren in Lancaster, PA
Frame and panel was not new in 1500.
Re: Frame & Panel - Dates
Sgian Dubh
Warren is right. Charles Hayward in Antique or Fake, for example, discusses examples of panelled furniture dating from the 1400s and earlier. I have a memory of seeing photographs of paintings showing English and other European Medieval scenes in which examples of panelling are visible, e.g., wainscotting, kists, that sort of thing - my memory may be a bit suspect, but I think I'm correct. A bit of extra research could either confirm or dismiss my recollection, but I'll leave that to someone else. Slainte.
Re: Frame & Panel - Dates
Curt Putnam
Thank you, gentlemen
Perhaps the case was dovetailed. It may the drawer blades that caused the sides to crack.
check drawers
Bill Tindall, E.Tn.
I was provided a tour of drawers through the ages at the Philly museum. You may be able to date by the drawer details.
Re: Frame & Panel - Dates
John Aniano in central NJ
Hello Curt,
I did a quick search looking for "frame and panel" and ancient Egypt. I found several books that describe "later period" Egyptian frame and panel boxes and chests. So, the construction method has been around a very long time!
To answer your implied question - when would the technique have been commonly used in England, I can't say. Since the bottom portion of Great Britain was under Roman sway, and the Romans borrowed from every culture they encountered (took over) it's likely that frame and panel construction might have been in Britain far earlier than roughly 1400. Just a guess!
I wonder if there are any Pompeii frescoes that show F&P construction in furniture...
John
Re: Frame & Panel - Dates
Sgian Dubh
"Perhaps the case was dovetailed. It may the drawer blades that caused the sides to crack."
Curt, how does that comment relate to your query about frame and panel construction, and when that methodology became common in English furniture? I just can't see a logical connection between frame and panel construction and drawer dividers, what you may mean by saying drawer blades. Slainte.
Early English Furniture & Woodwork *LINK*
Rafael from PA
I recently had the chance to buy these two volumes, but they got sold to a collector before I got a chance to make an offer.
Fortunately for me I found them in the Internet archive. I have not had a chance to study them, but I thought there may be some interesting information in there.
Early English Furniture & Woodwork, Cescinsky, Herbert; Gribble, Ernest R, 1922. Vols. I and II.
VOl. I: https://archive.org/details/earlyenglishfurn01cescuoft/page/n13/mode/2up
Vol. II: https://archive.org/details/earlyenglishfurn02cescuoft
Early English Furniture & Woodwork, Vol. I
Re: Early English Furniture & Woodwork
Curt Putnam
Thank you!
Re: Frame & Panel - Dates
Curt Putnam
In my ignorance, I expected that F & P was a more recent invention than the chest and I was hoping to use that as a proxy for setting an upper date limit on the chest.
Th chest sides are cracked split from top to bottom which lead me to think that the builder did not know about F&P. Clearly, that thought process was erroneous. Except for the splits, the sides are solid. Anyway, I drifted from looking solid sides as being the culprit to what could be fastened both fore and aft such that it would crack a solid panel.
I've been advised that the chest has considerable value. Therefore, I am not going to disassemble it to satisfy a mild curiosity which was intensified by all the recent discussion of drawer dividers and blades.
Anyway, I hope that this explains the drift in my vague thought processes.
Picture?
Bill Tindall, E.Tn.
I don't see how a panel in a frame and panel could split.
F&P has been around for centuries...
Chris Scholz
...in the far East.
The gnarly old wood species that the ancient Chinese preferred don't grow into large trunks, F&P became a necessity. Dovetail construction is relatively uncommon in traditional Asian furniture and usually used for secondary joinery like in drawers.
Marco Polo was born in 1254. It is completely plausible that M&T construction made it to the British Isles via Venetian traders and the Silk Road. (pure speculation, I have no evidence to support that)
Re: Picture?
Warren in Lancaster, PA
I have repaired panels that were cracked. Sometimes it is a panel that was glued up and the glue joint failed; sometimes a single board panel splits. A flat sawn panel is vulnerable when it can crack along the radial surface. Sometimes it is hard to see why it broke.
We take the frame apart to work on the panel. The last time someone brought a frame that was glued with yellow glue I told the guy I was too busy.
Re: Picture?
Curt Putnam
Mr. Tindall - my maunderings have lead you down the garden path. It is a solid panel. I was going to use F & P as a proxy for date, but since it was invented long before this chest was built, that thought process will a) - not work and b) - has totally confused everyone.
I will try to get some pics of the chest in the next few days
F&P has been around for millenia
Jack Dover
Most likely they've got it from Romans. And Romans got it from somewhere else. There was a nightstand unearthed in Herculanum, all panel and frame construction, a design we're using by this day, and that's 79 AD. Also paneled doors, fielded and plain were found there, as well as in paintings and sculptures dated way back, so it's totally possible F&P was discovered independently around the world.
Rather than using a particular joint I would try matching an overall piece design to a particular period and then maybe narrowing it by a construction method.
Re: Frame & Panel - Dates
Curt Putnam
I tried to get some shots of the chest today. It appears I had the wrong lens on and did a poor job with the lighting. Scroll down a couple of rows and chest pics begin after the anvil.
Located in a Flickr album at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/10594222@N00/albums/72157706336831611
Re: Frame & Panel - Dates
John Aniano in central NJ
Curt,
The chest in question is the light colored veneered one pictured with the brass pulls? At the end of your photograph list. After the anvils, right?
If so, I think I see circular saw marks on the pine (or fir) interior. Might be pit saw (doubtful) or just plain hand sawn pine stock.
If circular sawn, would date around 1760 or so if Europe and maybe early 19th century if American. These are very approximate dates.
That, regardless of the frame and panel construction!
John
Re: Frame & Panel - Dates
Curt Putnam
Hi John,
Interesting. From my vantage, I don't see such marks, but then my vision is failing. Where do you think you see circular saw marks? I'll try to get better pictures.
Tjanks for looking.
Re: Frame & Panel - Dates
John Aniano in central NJ
Hi Curt,
I'm looking at image number 9 after the anvil image. On the left side of the image on an upright divider (?) panel. They look like diagonal saw marks going from bottom left to upper right and they might be curved, but I can't tell for sure. The panel is to the left of the glue block with whitish residue (glue?). The photos are a bit blurry.
It's a nice looking cabinet regardless of its age. I hadn't realized you mentioned at the beginning of the thread that it was supposed to be a 17th century piece. That would preclude a circular saw for sure!
John
Where is the frame and panel
Bill Tindall, E.Tn.
Looks to me like typical early 1700's construction and hardware, if the hardware is original. Post a picture of how the drawers bottom is attached to the drawer.
I don't see a frame and panel?
Re: Where is the frame and panel
Wiley Horne
In his OP, Curt was noting that if the maker had used frame-and-panel, there would not be the split solid side. Hence, he asked whether frame-and-panel was even in use when the piece was made—he was trying to reason through why frame and panel was not used.
Wiley
Re: Where is the frame and panel
John in NM
That side looks more like a failed joint than a split to me... though it is hard to tell from the photo. Doesn't seem like a split would be related to construction in that kind of casework, for the most part all the grain goes the same way.
Re: Where is the frame and panel
Curt Putnam
I say again - my apologies. I raised F & P thinking that I could use that as a dating proxy. I was wrong, of course.
Re: Where is the frame and panel
Sgian Dubh
Curt, I'd say you don't really have frame and panel construction in that chest. Looking closely at the largest image you have (fuzzy as it is) of the chest's side I'm pretty sure I can see a row of nails attaching the side to the top internal front to back framing member, part of the top drawers kicker. I suspect the side might similarly be nailed to the rest of internal members, i.e., the runners/kickers, and to the bottom runner.
So, essentially, what you seem to have is a wide board, probably made up of two or three pieces edge glued, and then nailed through to restraining cross pieces, and this is a likely cause of the cabinet side's split.
As to age, it's hard to say, but I suspect it's not a high end piece that was made in a top level big city workshop, and is more likely to be from one of the lesser city workshops, or possibly from what I'd think of as a country workshop away from a big city with its more up to date styling influences, and if so, the maker could be working in a style some twenty to fifty years behind the times. So, age, I'd guess, it being largely an oak exterior with what looks like some mahogany veneer at the front, plus softwood drawer parts, along with brass plates and drop pulls (assuming original) then somewhere between about late 18th century to any time up to about 1840. Slainte.
Re: Where is the frame and panel
Warren in Lancaster, PA
When you look at the front of the chest and then look at the sides of the chest from the inside, it is obvious that the side panels are very thin. Maybe only 5/16 inches thick. The inside framing is the structure and the side boards are just glued on, and maybe nailed where they came loose.
It is obvious why the sides cracked; this is cross grain construction.