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Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

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Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#1

Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

Dave (Arlington, VA)

I am a long time lurker here on Wood Central, and have been following - off and on - the posts on unicorn sharpening, and have watched David's videos on his website over the past months. Most recently I have just finished reading David, Winston and Bill's article in Popular Woodworking...and the more comprehensive article here in WoodCentral. Congratulations to each of you.

I just finished sharpening a chisel to 21 degrees and putting a 25 degree secondary bevel on it. My next step is to run out to Home Depot and get a buffing wheel for my cordless drill (a la Winston's approach).

In the meantime, I've had a question kicking around in my head about comparing effectiveness of the unicorn method with frequent stropping. I think this starts with checking first to see if I've drawn an incorrect inference from what I understand of the unicorn method.

At least for me, this addition of a secondary bevel (which I don't normally do - generally I hollow grind and hone a 25 degree primary bevel - and strop using green compound on leather) requires the use of a sharpening jig to ensure the consistency of the angle. In my normal practice, if I feel the blade losing it's sharpness I can just re-strop a number of times, and when the edge needs to be renewed, because I hollow grind I find I can normally refresh an edge by quickly re-honing an edge free hand.

Pretty frequent stropping has seemed to work pretty well for me so far to keep my blades sharp - though I'm just a hobbyist. Since it sounds like with the unicorn method every time I need to refresh the blade (though less often) I will need to bring out my eclipse sharpening jig and buffing wheel, I am wondering if this will actually save me sharpening time overall?

This may have been addressed in previous posts. If so, my apologies, but if so I missed them.

Thanks to those of you who have been looking for new ways to improve on old practices.

Regards -

Dave

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#2

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or any

David Weaver

It would be perfectly fine to buff right on the 25 degree grind and hone. You'll likely find the buffer does a more thorough job to the edge than stropping in a much shorter time period, and it's almost impossible to contaminate.

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#3

No hard and fast rules,  by the way...

David Weaver

It's really more about bolstering the tip until failure is eliminated without increasing penetration resistance vs a flat bevel method.

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#4

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or any

Dave (Arlington, VA)

That was quick.

I'll try it on both - the 21 degree chisel I just did and a 25 degree chisel.

Thank you, David!

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#5

Re: Isn't this doing an apex....

Bruce McCrory

... bevel in preparation of a keen edge? Your buffed edge builds a steeper bevel at the tip which improves the strength of the apex edge, as well as refine the sharp edge. You don't need an intermediate secondary bevel. The apex is the "secondary".

It's almost identical to final stropping a razor to create a small, steep bevel at the epex. Which also changes a coarse shave into a smooth one. This is according to the straight razor advocates. I just buy costly Feathers and use a styptic pencil, which is cheaper than imagined stitches; I am optimistic on occasion.

For touch up, a strop or buffer would accomplish the same intent.

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#6

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or any

Winston

It's not necessary to do a secondary bevel to get benefits from buffing. So no need to get out the honing guide -- just do what you currently do on the stones (hone to 25 degrees), and then take the blade to the buffing wheel for a few seconds. That's really all there is to it.

The secondary bevel just makes it so that the chisel can penetrate the wood more easily, but it's not necessary.

The buffer doesn't just smooth out the edge; it also increases the angle right at the edge, and this is what provides durability.

I also did a test of stropping at a high angle (about 45 degrees) instead of using a buffing wheel, and that also made the edge more durable than an edge right off the stones.

https://chisel-test.netlify.app/#buck-brothers-stropped

I've found that for chisels, as long as you stay below a certain threshold of difficulty of work that you're putting it to, you can work completely without any visible edge damage (that is, no chipping or folding visible under the microscope). The threshold can be increased by increasing the bevel angle and by buffing. The edge will slowly get duller, but to the naked eye, it will look unchanged.

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#7

I'm not quite sure ...

David Weaver

I fully understand the question, but I'd hone to a middle stone before buffing just because the buffer will round over a more coarse edge, but it may not be even. Plus, the secondary honing is how you maintain square, etc, rather than at the grind.

Yes on the razor - the edge looks less perfect after stropping, but doesn't get defects during the shave like a crisp apex does over time.

Razoring forums have a popular habit of making two very crisp high polish apexes, which are probably technically sharper, but they're transient and while they're sharp, they have a fine enough apex to cut skin at the back of the pore (razorburn). Think all synthetic abrasives on hard flat surfaces and avoidance of any edge rounding (no linen, only very light stropping on high tension leather).

In my opinion, a razor edge is better with linen and leather and not chasing the edge off (or at least not trying). It takes a week or two for me to get a razor settled in on a fresh hone, which generally equates to about 3 trips to the linen to modify the edge.

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#8

everyone likes specs

David Weaver

The measurements provided in the article are just what developed from trial in use (as in, I came to find them after measuring them, but used them before - they're not developed at spec for any particular reason).

I don't think you'll find 25 degrees and 23 secondary to be much different, I just like to hone the secondary freehand without any jigging from the top side of the bevel, and I have an obsession with something being dominant (game theory term) if describing it as such. Dominant being a game theory term where your strategy is unbeatable by another no matter how well your opposition plays.

Buffing is all fine and good, and I'm sure some will find the fact that it saves edges (especially in marginally soft or marginally too hard chisels) useful by itself, but it's even better if it can also be made equal or better in expended effort.

I'm fairly sure that bill was fine with 30 degrees and then buff and was perfectly pleased just not to be stuck stepping away and sharpening all the time.

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#9

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or any

Warren in Lancaster, PA

I've found that for chisels, as long as you stay below a certain threshold of difficulty of work that you're putting it to, you can work completely without any visible edge damage (that is, no chipping or folding visible under the microscope). The threshold can be increased by increasing the bevel angle and by buffing. The edge will slowly get duller, but to the naked eye, it will look unchanged.

I have argued on this forum for over a decade that chisels should not bend or chip in use, but rather dull by wear the way a plane iron wears.

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#10

am I correct...

David Weaver

..that your comment about sharpening is a bare leather strop following honing on a flat bevel set around 30 degrees for chisels?

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#11

Re: am I correct...

Warren in Lancaster, PA

You can do whatever you want, but if you are getting chipping and folding on a chisel, it is not productive.

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#12

you're missing the point...

David Weaver

you tell everyone that you chisel without chipping, but when someone asks for specifics, they're elusive.

You tell everyone that you use a double iron plane, but when someone asks how, you say "it's subtle".

I am an amateur with no notable achievements. I can tell people how to use a double iron plane and provide specs that will allow them to both chisel without chipping, but also to do it with marginal tools.

Do you see the problem here?

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#13

It's a KungFu Panda moment...

Jim Matthews

"There's no secret ingredient."

Compare his truculence to George Wilson.

Such are the ways of those who will be forgotten.

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#14

A thought on how our wear can be avoided

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Those that use a chisel for something productive know what dulls our edges. In my case it is impact from striking it, as well as scraping and prying. If I have a chisel in hand it gets used for whatever it can do. I am not going to put it down and seek the perfect tools. One sharpening session will take me through a typical case piece with a few drawers. Good enough for my needs. Just done it. One sharpening, two small cases for a desk. Documentation:



If I only used a chisel like someone uses a carving tool it would get dull like a carving tool. I am not willing to restrict use of my chisels to ways that avoid dulling them.

Alan Batty worked at an English factory for a time making drawers. The quota was 6 per day. Chisels were sharpened in the evening. The tiny amount of dovetail waste in the white oak sides was removed largely by 3 saw kerfs-side, side and center- followed by one pareing cut from the chisel. I would not expect to see any deformation wear under these conditions. Chop out the waste from a larger white oak tail with a mallet and deformation or chipping is assured.

Moral of story, dulling depends on how you work and what you work with, and of course whether you work at all.

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#15

Re: you're missing the point...

Warren in Lancaster, PA

I had a math teacher who railed against "cookbook math", where you say put this number here, that there etc., a long string of instructions without thinking.

David, you knew how the double iron worked in 2011 already. On this forum (12/15/11) you wrote:

I understand how and why double iron planes work.

On 3/2/2012 when Bob Strawn admitted he used the double iron you wrote:

I'm not sure that there are any experienced users who don't think a double iron works

Yet you did not actually learn until you sat down and really worked at it as you reported on 3/26/2012.

Bill Tindall watched the Kato video and read the literature, promoted double iron use, watched the Kees videos, and read the Weaver article, but over a year later still had to ask this forum how to plane quartersawn ash (6/12/13). Mark Hennebury wrote at the time:

You can't be the same guy that went through all of the exhaustive discussion on hand plane setup last year, and then posted this thread about grain tearout without having setup your handplane first?

please tell me its not you.

You already had the solution to this before posting.

I wouldn't for a moment have ever questioned your handplane setup.

I have to say Bill you caught me by surprise this time.

Bill was then successful after being told the problem was him, not the plane or the wood. Experience is helpful.

A lot of skills don't lend themselves to paint-by-number methods. Those who teach this way often have to make up techniques that are dumbed down in order to fit this way of learning.

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#16

This caught my attention

Jim Matthews

"Alan Batty worked at an English factory for a time making drawers. The quota was 6 per day. Chisels were sharpened in the evening. The tiny amount of dovetail waste in the white oak sides was removed largely by 3 saw kerfs-side, side and center- followed by one pareing cut from the chisel."

The center cut, right down the middle?

Width of the dovetail same as the chisel?

Why didn't I think of that?

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#17

Re: This caught my attention

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Why didn't I think of that?

Because you were not faced with getting 6 drawers made in a day? :)

I am up to about 1 a day. >(

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#18

I was motivated

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Experience is helpful.

So, I took a moment and tallied up the major pieces of furniture I have made. Fell just shy of 100, not counting kitchen "furniture"/cabinetry and architectural work. I am able, and do, document my experience. People are storing their socks in case pieces and eating off tables I have made in 3 households. With your decades of claimed skills what have you produced lately? Experience doesn't count for much unless it is being validated by doing something productive with it.

The alleged fact that I had a question about planing quartered something or another a decade ago has about the same relevance to chisel dulling or reproducing a Chester County 7 drawer chest of drawers as your likely inability to lay down a glass smooth finish of lacquer with a spray gun. None

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#19

That pace sounds right...

Jim Matthews

It's primarily why I avoid details.

At 1 a day, you're twice as fast.

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#20

Another movie reference

Jim Matthews

Warren is Pai Mei.

Acolyte, "I have completed my Seven Labors."

Warren, "You did it wrong. Start over."

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#21

I land the technique, measure later...

David Weaver

..when someone asked how far off the cap iron is set for close planing, I said "put it as close to the edge as you can visibly see anything at all in light and then back it off a tiny amount, then plane".

This was fairly easy to communicate.

I started rolling the tip of an edge over i don't know how long ago - 5 years ago? It wasn't very interesting to anyone, but it stopped failure without having to make a blunt fat bevel like japanese chisels are often set when they're too hard (35 degrees or whatever). I didn't communicate it that well, but rolled it into discussion about sharpening being faster with slow stones because you can focus what you're doing where it needs to be done and not get caught doing useless work with stones because "they work fast".

I never measured the roll, you do what feels right, but if someone asks for a spec that works, it's pretty easy to provide. A 34 degree microbevel will just about stop failure for most people who are malleting a chisel. I don't like the way it feels. A 30 degree microbevel will not unless the work is only softwood. I didn't know those particular angles that I can recall until measuring to write an article, but they were pretty easy to find.

I have the luxury of having chisels 200 years old through chisels made recently in japan to a high spec - confirming that the range of angles that work well doesn't change much unless the chisels are outright junk. The range is about 2 degrees between OK chisels and the best chisels.

My point here is that I cannot tell anyone how to master something without them committing to using it and seeing what feels right, but I can get a good idea of what works and then measure them later (to avoid using a spec and then never varying because "the spec is right").

If I refuse to measure things like that and provide something that works, and follow up if it doesn't, then nobody ever starts in the first place. IT's not uncommon to come across people who say "that works for you, but won't work for me, or you say that works for you, but I doubt that's what you're doing", but you can write those people off.

I knew the double iron worked in 2010 or so because I'd set it far to close - it may have been before then. I compared a 70 degree effective back beveled stanley plane to a cap iron and both were about the same in resistance, but didn't know enough to continue to experiment because I wasn't far off. I just knew that the first try - no tearout and really hard to push. The thing that swayed me with the cap iron was how hard it was to dimension wood with single iron planes and the economic argument about why cap irons were included with planes (in a time when people didn't waste money).

the first person I communicated setting the cap iron to (chris griggs) had success with it. I didn't have to tell him how he would match someone working in a shop 250 years ago or it would be wasted effort, I just had to tell him something he could apply, which he did.

At this point, I can tell people multiple ways to eliminate edge failure, but I can't tell them a magic answer where they can use a 22 degree crisp apex as a magic trick with a certain steel at a certain hardness - it doesn't exist.

it isn't useful to tell someone that they will only be able to do something if they experiment themselves and are determined to master it.

I majored in math. I couldn't do paint by math - I don't have the memory for it without the why, so I eventually stopped paying attention in class memorizing application of basic calculus and went home and worked through the theorems until I understood their proofs and then it stuck. I sort of envy people who can take a description of something from someone else and just go repeat it because their minds will remember it and allow them to do it in order. Never worked for me, and I didn't have a professor clue me in on that - I struggled until I determined a way that I could learn and then didn't pay much attention in a math lecture ever again other than to make a list of the things I needed to learn.

That's unusual - most of the kids in the class had no trouble taking what they were taught and then just using it. The world is full of people looking to do something well enough and not look deeper, and there's nothing wrong with describing something simple that works for them.

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#22

Re: This caught my attention

Warren in Lancaster, PA

I use 3/16, 1/4, 5/16, 3/8 and 7/16 chisels for chopping dovetails in the tail board so I can use a chisel just the right width. If it does not come out just right I make a very slight adjustment to the dovetail angle so that the chisel just takes out the stuff between the kerf marks.

Of the odd size chisels, 5/16 is the most important.

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#23

Signal loss

Jack Dover

A lot of skills don't lend themselves to paint-by-number methods. Those who teach this way often have to make up techniques that are dumbed down in order to fit this way of learning

An important aspect I believe is that when you talk to people irl you provide as much information in a non-verbal way as you do verbally. Non-verbal part is lost over internet, so dumbing down is pretty much the only way it could be communicated over the network (I would argue that any manual skill explained in text is inevitably dumbed down). Other than that you're right, no amount of reading or numbers would teach playing basketball, gotta get out and play.

However, while absolute numbers aren't that important, their order of magnitude is. I agree that if someone tries to back the cap iron off using digital calipers because "Warren in Lancaster told me he sets it 0.0172" off" — it's OCD, but things like "just a tiny bit" and "you have to feel it" are not helpful at all for someone not having a reference. I think everyone would agree that bevel angles, cap iron distances, etc. are set with as much as ±10% accuracy in an average shop and it does not affect anything.

Re: Unicorn sharpening - ? for David Weaver or anyone

#24

Failure angles

Jack Dover

A 34 degree microbevel will just about stop failure for most people who are malleting a chisel. I don't like the way it feels. A 30 degree microbevel will not unless the work is only softwood.

That's what I have figured myself too. 34-35 degree stops even the softest chisel from rolling over, micro- or full-bevel. At this angle there's lots of wedge resistance, chopping at this angle with a 1/2" or wider chisel feels like mashing fibers, so I don't like it either. They don't also pare at this angle, unless freshly sharpened, but they do after dropping a couple of degrees to 32-33 angle.

I decided that edge retention at 33 degrees when chopping is my personal low watermark for a medium quality tool, anything that folds or chips at this angle should be either repurposed or gotten rid of.

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