Sharpening stones. Shapton Pro?

Re: Sharpening stones.  Shapton Pro?

David Bassett

"Doesn't mean they are the best though I know."

I don't think there is a "best", just a "best for you" and a "best for me". There is too much personal preference involved in selecting a sharpening system for any universal truths. (Though I suppose "wrong answers" are possible, you do need to be able to sharpen the steel you use.)

Clearly the Shapton Pros are capable, too many people have had success with them to argue otherwise. Since they'll work with a spritz of water you'll solve your objection to soaking stones. I would suggest you get one to try before you spring for a set (unless you've found a source with a ridiculous discount on a package. )

Oh, also, the 1000 and 2000 seem sort of close. Maybe you can get by with only 3 stones?

Re: Sharpening stones.  Shapton Pro?

Curt Putnam

I went with Stu's 1000, 6000, 13000 Sigma Power Select II stones and have been very happy. Regardless of what you do, I believe you want you final to be on

Re: Sharpening stones.  Shapton Pro?

TomD

Sounds like you are ready to spend. If I had your stuff, I would be moving it to power. LV planes don't come with 300 dollar baldes that one feels a heel to rough with a grinder (and that is no disrespect to what they come with). It is a waste of time trying to sharpen that stuff on Japanese stones. I have a quadrilian japanese tools and having learned to sharpen that way I still largely sharpen on Japanese stones. I have King stuff, and I don't really see how you can beat it. There is no need for tools that are sharper than hair popping which is easy to get off an 8000 King. I used the Shaptons at the dealer's but they are like anything else they have their own peculiarities. I have tried all manner of setups and dozens of brands, and probably because I learned them so throroughly, for hand sharpening I came back to the King. I think I have a better 1500 in there. I toss them in a bucker a bit before I sharpen, and I might leave them there. I have two 800s to flatten each other, and I have the 1500 and 6 and 8 K. I was always told one should not flatten on the coarser grits until I met a real master who did just that.

Japanese stones have a whole culture of their own, and some mythological elements. And it is as much fun experimenting as it is practicing any hobby, but as far as just sharpening is concerned, I have a lot of stones sitting around that were bought to improve the herd, and ended up not actually making a difference. I have flirted with oil, and diamonds, and ceramics, and scary sharp, and more oil stones, and different diamonds...

I certainly hear you on the wet and dirt, but once one reaches for a purely efficient solution there had better be a switch somewhere.

Re: Sharpening stones.  Shapton Pro?

David Bassett

I'm not sure because Sigma, or their vendors, have been sloppy with the English names of their stones, but I believe Stu's Sigma Power stones were different than the Sigma Select II stones sold by other vendors.

The forum discussion back when Stu was still selling them said his Power line was less friable and lasted longer on the steels used in woodworking tools. The Select II line, like LV carries, released grit faster and therefore wore & dished faster. It was judged a little better on A2, but not necessary unless you were sharpening even whizzier steels and completely wasted on 01.

I wish there was more clarity available and that the older Power stones were easily available in the US, but it doesn't seem to be so. Besides Joe seems to want to spend his money on Shapton Pros, do we really want to talk him out of it?

I have a set (and the King 1000)

Jim Matthews

They cut fast, but they're messy.

If you have a sink, they're fine.

Otherwise, there's loads of slurry from all the grits.

The finest stone leaves a great finish, on a properly prepared blade.

For my day-to-day sharpening, a coarse India Oil stone and a couple licks on a finer stone before buffing is sufficient.

1000/8000/autosol on harder pine or ..

David Weaver

.....softer hardwood.

If you're going to use the shapton pros, I'd use the rotation I mentioned. Shop around. It should be about $100 total or a little more for those two stones and the autosol or dursol on wood will match most of the finest stones that cost more than anyone should have to spend.

Re: Sharpening stones.  Shapton Pro?

Kevin Adams

Hi Joe,

I use oil stones a fair amount of time, but also have some Shapton Pros, which I like quite a bit. I started with 1, 5, and 8, and then added the 2. I find the 2 to be a very important stone as it really prepares the blade for honing. I actually replaced my 8 along the way with the next highest grit (12 maybe? It’s light yellow) and I think I like it better than the 8. There’s a place in WI (chefs knives I believe) that seems to have the best prices and they ship immediately if in stock.

Hope this helps. The Shaptons are quite convenient and they flatten quickly with the Atoma 400.

Happy New Year!

Kevin

+ 1 for simple oilstones

Jack Dover

Unless a decision was already made to go with water stones, oilstones could be test driven fairly cheaply. A combo India stone is around 25-30$ and a cheap soft Arkansas could be found for 12-15$. They will still be useful around a house whether you like them or not - marking knives, narrow irons, etc. are better sharpened on an oilstone, 'cos they won't dish in one spot.

What I like about oilstones setup is that it can be quite minimalistic.

Re: Sharpening stones.  Shapton Pro? *LINK*

David Bassett

"... There’s a place in WI (chefs knives I believe) that seems to have the best prices...."

That'd be Chefs Knifes To Go. (Link attached.)

On any given day you might do better on Amazon, sometimes under "Ha No Kuromaku", instead of Pro. But Mark should be more reliable. (You'll need to compare part numbers to really compare, Shapton has different sizes they sell for different purposes and in different markets.) Of course with Amazon 3rd-party sellers YMMV.


https://www.chefknivestogo.com/

Re: Sharpening stones.  Shapton Pro?

Wiley Horne

Hi Joe,

1000. The Shapton Pro 1000 is a great first stone—takes no prisoners.

5000. It’s been a while, and things may gave changed, but I didn’t like my Shapton 5000 (back before they had the ‘pro’ notation)—really weak cutting.

8000. Never had a Shapton 8000, but the 12000 was very good until I used it up—this was the one on a wood block. Replaced it with a Sigma 13K, and it leaves a heck of an edge (though some might find it too soft).

Wiley

The 5k is a tweener stone

David Weaver

...like the 3 and 5k chosera. They're almost fine, not really even almost fast, and they leave woodworkers with a burr (that most beginners don't know how to handle).

I never found a use for mine. 13k sp is probably half as fast as the 12k stone, but twice as fine. The 12k shapton pro claims 1.12 microns or something of the like, but it either has particles that release in clumps or loose grading (which I'm convinced is done to make a fine stone rating work faster than one with closely graded grits).

I found the 5k stone useful only when setting up new irons to get to the 12k faster, and then never found regular use for it other than that.

Re: The 5k is a tweener stone

Kevin Adams

My experience has been the same. The 5 is an interesting stone and perhaps my biggest beef with it is I get a lot of “stickiness” when sharpening. Once you get the hang of it though, it is my first stone for honing, followed by the 12k (or whatever the light yellow is). The 5 actually seems harder than the 12 in my experience. The 12 can gouge easily if not careful. I only use it for a tiny microbevel and then final burr removal.

Joe, they’re easy and consistent stones, and they travel well in their plastic boxes.

Kevin

Re: Sharpening stones.  Shapton Pro?

Curt Putnam

What I meant to say (apparently lost the last half of my post) is that regardless of medium or brand, I believe you want to finish up with sub-micron media, be that stones or strops. You can mix and match media too.

Re: 1000/8000/autosol on harder pine or ..

Joe in a Cleveland suburb

David. What do you mean by "autosol or dursol on wood". How is this done.

Thanks.

Re: Sharpening stones.  Shapton Pro?

Joe in a Cleveland suburb

Thanks for the suggestions\comments.

I guess I have some thinking to do. I use cherry and\or walnut for 99% of what I make. Sometimes some figured maple. No fancy hard to plane woods. Maybe, since it's been working for me for so long, I should just stick with the King stones. Maybe just replace the broken one.

Someone said they don't need to be stored in water and just soak them for a bit before use. Didn't know that.

Thanks.

Re: 1000/8000/autosol on harder pine or ..

David Weaver

just take a piece of flat scrap wood and put a pea sized amount of autosol on the wood and hone on it. when the wood gets some contamination in it, change the piece of wood, and if it doesn't, add more autosol as needed. works great. Since it's the last step in a sharpening cycle, perfect flatness isn't that important (that's true for all finishing stones - something faster cutting before the last step will always maintain flatness).

Re: Sharpening stones.  Shapton Pro?

David Bassett

"Someone said they don't need to be stored in water and just soak them for a bit before use. Didn't know that."

Yes, soaking stones can be dried between uses but you need to take care they don't dry too fast. If the drying is uneven they can and, too often, will crack. (Like wood drying unevenly and cracking.) Fortunately I've never had this happen, but I wrap mine in the slightly damp towels I've been using to dry the tools and set them on a wire (cookie cooling) rack away from any direct sun or heat source to keep the drying slow and even. So far it's worked. Internet discussion suggests any stone is susceptible, but Naniwa Chosera / Pro stones are most prone. I really don't know how careful you need to be with the King stones, but an ounce of prevention....

Re: Sharpening stones.  Shapton Pro?

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

I sharpen my old Marples chisels, various old Stanleys, some have Hock A2 irons, Lee Valley and LV planes I think are all A2. No fancy metals to sharpen.

So, I've been thinking about the Shapton Pro stones. Maybe 1000, 2000, 5000, and 8000 grits.

Hi Joe

The Marples are essentially O1 steel, and mine do not hold an edge particularly well. Mine responded positively to David's Unicorn profile.

I am not enamoured with sharpening A2 steel (it is still a good steel to use, nevertheless). It has a gummy feel compared with both 01 and PM-V11, and holds the wire more tenaciously. This is the steel you need to deal with.

Of all the Shapton Pros, the only one I continue to use is the 1000. This is a little gem, and will stay with you a long, long time.

The two stones I follow with are the Sigma 6000 and 13000 ceramic waterstones. These are much faster cutting than the Shapton Pro 5000 (which I especially dislike - it loads quickly and polishes rather than cuts) and 12000 (a decent stone, but a carthorse in comparison), respectively. The Sigmas are also harder stones, and resist wear better.

All the above are used with a spritz of (mild) soapy water. I do not soak them. The soapy water prevents stiction, gumming up, and keeps your hands cleaner

Keep in mind that I do not know how you sharpen - full face, secondary, hollow grind, guide, freehand ... A more efficient method will also reduce sharpening time.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Sharpening stones.  Shapton Pro?

Kevin Adams

Hi Derek,

Are those the previous version of Sigma stones or the Sigma II that are available now from places like LV? I don’t see a 6k offered now, it goes from 1-3-10 (or 13).

Thanks.

Kevin

Re: Sharpening stones.  Shapton Pro?

Warren in Lancaster, PA

Where did you get the information that Marples chisels were "essentially o1 steel"? Analysis? Manufacturer?

Re: Sharpening stones.  Shapton Pro?

Joe in a Cleveland suburb

Thank you (and all) for the response.

" I do not know how you sharpen - full face, secondary, hollow grind, guide, freehand"

I use a guide. I mostly use the cheap gray one. I forget what it's called. Eclipse?

I have a LV guide too but don't use it often as I find it's difficult to get the iron or chisel squared up in it.

For plane irons I usually do a secondary bevel. I don't use my grinder.

On chisels I don't do a secondary - for some reason I didn't think secondary bevels on chisels were recommended, I might remember that wrong.

Thank you.

I believe these are Sigma Power ...

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

They came from Stu when he ran Tools from Japan. That was several years ago.

I suspect that the #6000 is only available in Japan, which is why LV do not sell it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Sharpening stones.  Shapton Pro?

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

I use a guide. I mostly use the cheap gray one. I forget what it's called. Eclipse?

I have a LV guide too but don't use it often as I find it's difficult to get the iron or chisel squared up in it.

For plane irons I usually do a secondary bevel. I don't use my grinder.

On chisels I don't do a secondary - for some reason I didn't think secondary bevels on chisels were recommended, I might remember that wrong.

Joe, a honing guide can speed up sharpening by adding a secondary bevel. I do not understand why you do not use a secondary bevel on chisels as well as plane blades. Actually, it makes no sense to hone a full bevel with a guide. So, there is a time saver already!

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Sharpening stones.  Shapton Pro?

Joe in a Cleveland suburb

why you do not use a secondary bevel on chisels as well as plane blades

That comes from my own confusion/bad memory. I am probably confusing the back bevel or ruler trick with the micro bevel. The ruler trick you don't do on chisels...