A different take on chisels

Re: A different take on chisels

Bruce McCrory

Feel in hand is definitely important. I think of LV bench chisels as my palm tools and Ore nomi as the 'beaters'. It's not so much a matter of grip as where the tip is in relation to flex under pressure.

However, when comparing handle, blade shape and steel, there is no priority in function. Can you say your stomach is more important than the brain? These tool features work in concert.

I think we select on the basis of individual convenience and comparative efficiency. As a detail, my hand is not comfortable around a Narex handle; it may be the faceted faces. I have never liked Ticonderoga nor the 6-sided ball-point counterparts. My hand migrates to round-ish barrel shapes and by now I can't find a Ticonderoga in my massive collection of writing instruments.

That's my take. Have a safe and productive 2021...

Fixing Narex

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Truly awful handles on pretty good steel. Remove ring. Chuck in lathe. Make barrel shaped. Success.

Making is the intersection of these two..

David Weaver

The form and the substance. Good proportion and acceptable steel is top priority for me. But if I'm going to make something, I want everything in it.

Uni came about trying to find something that would make mediocre tools with a nice feel really perform fsr more acceptably, though.

I thought I stole it from the knife people, but in talking to most on the knife forums, I leave feeling like I'm talking a foreign language. It does for marginal knives what it does for soft tools, but in talking about the practicality of that, I'm usually met with "I'd just get a knife out of 3v or s90v instead "

Re: Fixing Narex

Bruce, a MN Galoot

I didn’t like the handles that came on my Hirsch chisels, either. I cut them off and made new ones from a piece of firewood that followed me home from Yosemite, live oak, if I’m not mistaken. The shape I prefer is the one on my Berg chisels.

agree

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

If making a tool for one's use why not optimize the variables according to personal preferences? My point was directed to those buying. Once up in the midrange of quality the steel details become of lesser importance and the choice should be driven by other factors focused on how the chisel will be used.

I don't care how marginally better Japanese steel is. I don't like the handles they put on chisels....as an example.

Re: A different take on chisels

Jack Dover

I agree with you that's it's of interest to a smaller group.

I do get the sentiment that a hand tools woodworking sub-forum looks like a refugee camp for Practical Machinists. But I also think whether it's of interest or not really depends on many factors, i.e. what you do in your shop, what kind of woodworking you do, your methods, and so on.

For most so called "hybrid" woodworkers any chisel property except maybe ergonomics — "feels good in my hand", — doesn't matter, or at least isn't determinative. If Buck Bros would step up a notch with just sizes and shapes of their chisels they sell through HD - Narex sales wouldn't be as good. This is not a sting, everyone knows that a final result depends on more than just owning best tools (for a certain definition of "best").

For most "hand tools only" people steels are also of very little importance, because very few of them reflect on how efficient are they in their methods or whether is every aspect of their methods cranked up to 10 (and maybe that's why relatively few of them produce anything decent in terms of quality, but that's a whole different conversation). Majority of this crowd is just roleplaying and they go almost exclusively with someone's else recommendation, like that YT celebrity from UK who used to recommend gas station level chisels sold for 10$. Again, this doesn't include people doing it professionally, like historic museums, EAIA and similar societies, tools collectors, it's about people that one day decide they'll do "all hands woodworking" and then buy into all that online lore wholesale.

And then there's a few people that want to know not just "why", but also "what" happens when they do something. I personally benefit from these conversations, and not just because it quenches my curiosity, but also because it affects how I send money on a hobby. I registered at this forum mostly because it seems to be the only place where such conversations happen in a context of woodworking — knife making crowd talks a different language altogether and they have a totally different angle.

Was I not clear

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

My post was directed to the person that had not yet bought the chisels that would serve them for a lifetime of their woodworking needs. To summarize, when all the conversation is about steel it could seem that one should strive to buy chisels made from the "best". Best may only appear marginally better to someone making a place to store their socks.

My point was- once the steel is good enough other attributes become compelling. We fail the beginner by not discussing blade shape and handle with the enthusiasm we have for steel. I believe the Lee Valley steel is the best on the market for a chisel. Personally, I don't like the handles. I would buy a carbon steel chisel over the LV if it had a handle I preferred. I can modify a Narex handle to be perfect for my preferences but the blades are near useless for my work unless I modify them too. The steel is as good as most anyone would need to make stuff.

Japanese chisels

Jack Dover

... are not just marginally better, but only if you're doing Japanese woodworking in a traditional way — pieces in specific kinds of softwoods that use very little adhesives and rely on joinery that must be just right, almost with machine precision. Whether this is something you think is reasonable for a westerner hobbyist is another question, but their tools are tailored towards specific methods of work and within those methods they're quite a bit better. But if someone doesn't use those methods then there's no considerable benefits.

I would also say there are less benefits for anyone who is not doing it professionally, that is not making money with it in a competitive market with hard milestones and not being subjected to a particular scrutiny. If it's something done at leisure and for pleasure (like I do it) what a medium to low grade tool is lacking can probably be offset by spending more time on maintaining a tool. But even fairly unskilled people like me can tell there's a difference, thanks to some people kind enough to let me try their tools for a bit.

No, you were not.

Jack Dover

I would argue this forum is as good for discussing ergonomics as it is for steel talks in a context of discoverability. It doesn't have a high serp ranking unless you're searching for very specific keywords or names, so if you're concerned that beginners are getting a wrong message - they aren't getting either from this forum. Both subjects are excellent though.

Also, for any given brand out there there will be more than a handful of statements it's a lifetime tool. How a reasonable beginner should choose between you "feeling" that LV makes a lifetime tool and that other guy who also "feels" that 10$ Aldi chisels is all you'll ever need? Both of these opinions are equally non-quantifiable. Yeah, maybe a discussion about carbide sizes of different steels under x30 microscope is too much for someone looking to spend a fifty on chisels, but it doesn't mean it's objectively irrelevant data or that this forum is beginners only.

V11 makes a great clean wood

David Weaver

..plane iron, but a carbon steel at the same hardness would be better for chisels.

I didn't care for the landless edges, but that's in these days, I guess. The steel grinds hot because it doesn't spark, but it doesn't have the same toughness of a plainer high sparking steel.

I get what you're saying about the non steel aspects, though.

Re: A different take on chisels

Warren in Lancaster, PA

I was cutting half-blind dovetails yesterday. I use a cast steel chisel with a nice tapered tang, genuine octagonal bolster, and tapered octagonal beech handle. Overall it is about 10 1/2 inches long.

Re: Was I not clear

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

Bill, you were not clear about this ...

My post was directed to the person that had not yet bought the chisels that would serve them for a lifetime of their woodworking needs. To summarize, when all the conversation is about steel it could seem that one should strive to buy chisels made from the "best". Best may only appear marginally better to someone making a place to store their socks.

My point was- once the steel is good enough other attributes become compelling. We fail the beginner by not discussing blade shape and handle with the enthusiasm we have for steel.

Beginners are less likely to follow this type of advice. For one thing, it lacks the impact - the badge of membership - many seek when starting out and wanting to be part of a target group. Owning Narex, LN, Veritas, whatever ... offers that membership. It is all about the tool name and very little about the benefits using the tool.

The quest to find a "better" tool that works in a certain way comes later. My analogy is that it is akin to moving to a new city: in the beginning one is anxious about finding the way around, and we memorise and stick to one route between home and the work place. As we begin to “see” a progressively bigger picture, understanding how the parts go together, we become more comfortable branching out this way or that.

Many starting out seek uncomplicated guidance: a simple tool name is easier to digest than a detailed explanation.

By the way (and this is not aimed at you), Japanese chisels can be fantastic, not simply for the steel, but also for the handles. To appreciate the handles, you need to recognise the importance of a gennou. The two go hand-in-hand. The handles are designed to be struck, not pushed ... although setting hoops properly can change their comfort quite considerably. When one asks “why strike?”, we move to the next level of appreciation. And that takes up back to the beginner starting out looking for chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Two important considerations...

Jim Matthews

Brand recognition is still a starting point for purchases.

Cost is a genuine factor many (of us here) no longer consider.

This forum, and others like it help the sceptic sift out hype from advertising.

Real World testing on YouTube offers a less biased evaluation.

****

The difficulty is that there's no opportunity for most to "test drive" a given tool and chisels are elemental - if it feels right, you'll use it.

I have an orphan Ashley Iles 1" chisel that gets more use than any other in my shop.

I don't recall where or when I got it, the steel is just okay and it's "stubby".

I use it every day.

Re: Was I not clear

Bruce McCrory

... To appreciate the handles, you need to recognise the importance of a gennou. The two go hand-in-hand. The handles are designed to be struck, not pushed ... although setting hoops properly can change their comfort quite considerably. ...

I would not want to use my oire nomi for paring.

As well, they are a poor choice for a 'starter' tool since required setup is a nearly religious obsession in most cases. Just go to LV and wear bloody fingers and masking taped TP until the incidental sharp edges are finally burnished.

Ashley Iles

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I have an orphan Ashley Iles 1

When I posted about considering handles and blades I was thinking of the set of used chisels I bought and gave to son in law. Had I known how much I liked that style handle and needed that style of blade they would have stayed with me.

When I was at Old Salem, the chisels in the shop there where similar, with no brand evident (custom made?).

And that is why I won't own a Japanese chisel

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

The handles are designed to be struck, not pushed

There is little I do in woodworking with a chisel that does not involve a combination of striking and pushing. Damned if I am going to tolerate laying down one and picking up another chisel to complete a task. Or, even having to own and maintain two kinds of chisels to meet my chiseling needs.

Case at hand. I strike the chisel to lift the initial waste. But this means of waste removal gets risky as one nears the target, where I switch to paring.

I have no doubt that Japanese chisels are optimum for what ever Japanese do with them, but I don't work that way.

Re: Ashley Iles

David Weaver

The brand on the iles chisels is just printed on them. It would be no surprise if had worn off. The mark 2 chisels don't quite look like vintage chisels, but their proportions and sharpenability are a lot like good vintage chisels.

It's a shame...

David Weaver

That the setup is often overdescribed. The usual only issue with setup is not letting half of the back hang off of a stone where the edges can be cut through quickly.

Their temper temperature sensitivity is also often exaggerated, making people afraid of power grinding them.

Me too

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

...for the top of a two desk pedestal drawer units. 9 1/2 inch chisel home made from oversized 1/8" bar stock, CPM 3V.(cost about $5) Rectangular tang wedged into dogwood. Mallet is the "tool" I bought as a kid with "spending money". How I happened to keep track of it for this long is truly a puzzle. In the mean time I have lost 100 pocket knives, 10 watches and 2 pair of glasses.

Re: Was I not clear

TomD

So far I have yet to see an overall package that beats Japanese chisels. There are details there that have never been properly explained in anything I have seen, and for decades I read it all, though that is currently impossible. One feature they got right is none of these narrow transitions that set the thing vibrating when struck. The handles are tapered for the push, ergonomic. They have clearance to surface plane and reduce diving, on and on. Western chisels are very crude in comparison, and were uniformly better 150 years ago. One does not feel inclined to praise modern chisels when they have dropped off so badly from earlier production.

Chisels are at once the most versatile, subtle, and amazing tools in the woodworker's toolbox, and also the most easily replaced. If I had to use a cold chisel (I get to pick) for the rest of my life, I could get by. It is relatively easy to cut dovetails with a hack saw, and a cold chisel. But luckily we don't have to.

I should also point out, possibly in part due to pleasing advertisers, and also doubtless due to reality hitting them like a maul, there has never been a review of chisels that I have seen that did not list Japanese chisels at the top. And we are talking about largely hostile reviewers, and often describing prep steps not suited to the chisels. But, if you don't list them there, you loose all credibility. But particularly for the audience of such things, nobody needs to use them, or probably knows how. When you are dealing with the people who are pinching the blade in their hands, they have a distance to go. In the magazine business they are basically cycling through new audiences every few years, yet somehow they are considered "of record". A place like this is totally different, people have been on here for decades.

Well, yeah...

Jim Matthews

In the mean time I have lost 100 pocket knives, 10 watches and 2 pair of glasses.

You might have reversed the order.

As woodworkers we should be able to make handles

Chris Scholz

...if we don’t line the ones that come with the chisels.

We can build them any way we like them, short, long, round, oval, heptagonal, whatever we fancy.

So maybe we should be more concerned about the steel than the shape of the handles?

On the other hand, pretty much any modern tool steel should do reasonably well as a wood chisel.

missing my point

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

People that have been making stuff for decades are unlikely to be swayed by any thoughts I have on woodworking. My posts will typically be directed to the beginner woodworker that comes here to learn. I try to teach from my mistakes.

Making your own handle begins with knowing what is preferred for a handle. After chiseling my way through a good many case pieces the past decade I know exactly what I want a handle to be for what I do. Twenty years ago I did not have a clue.

I bought a set of "blue handles" and found the top heavy handle unwieldly. I bought a set of Sorby and found the steel to be useless soft but the handles ok. I bought a set of Two Cherries and found I was getting close in steel, blade shape and handle. Then I made chisels and for no better reason than it was an easy shape to make made barrel handles out of dogwood limbs, like Ashley. I found this shape comfy and effective at pushing a chisel where it needed to go.

I since tried an octagonal handle on a vintage chisel and didn't like the points. For no good reason than curiosity I bought some cheap Narex chisels, despised the handle, chucked the whole of it in the lathe and made it look like my preferred barrels. Easy to do now that I know the target.

As a result of this journey of wasted time and money I offer this advice to the beginner who is in no position to be wasting time making a handle for a new chisel. Buy one each of your chisel candidates. After using a chisel enough to know what you prefer, fill out the set. Choose a brand that has a wide range of sizes in the 1/8 to 5/8 range for you will use them all if you dovetail much. Because you are going to need a half dozen sizes don't buy some brand that is so expensive that you can't afford the variety of sizes that will be needed.