Saw sharpening Files?!

Re: Saw sharpening Files?!

David Weaver

bahco or vintage (heller, nicholson, simonds) for anything that's got some size.

Though, you will from time to time see new nicholson files by the dozen for $20-$30 a dozen and the mex files now are a good deal at that.

For small files (small and xx slim taper), you'll have to go somewhere other than bahco. mex nicholson can be found sometimes for $3 each and are fine at that (4xx, 5xx).

What tooth sizes are you looking to sharpen? Files in quantity (unless you find odd lots on ebay) are about 1/2 to 2/3rds of the cost per file of individual files, but you really aren't going to go through them quickly unless you're restoring old saws (in that case, you could go through a couple in a day).

Re: Saw sharpening Files?!

Tom Norton

I am thinking 12 pt. .

I see mcmaster Carr sells them and we have one close by.

Re: Saw sharpening Files?!

Tom Norton

Also which length? I see some Bacho 6" on ebay but is a 4" preferably?

Re: Saw sharpening Files?!

David Weaver

I'd say 6xx slim or 5x or 4x slim would work fine for that tooth size.

Mcmaster carr will probably send nicholsons in that size range, but whatever it is, they should send something usable (I've ordered xx slims from them before, but generally bahcos for everything bigger - but I've ordered bahcos drop shipped in boxes of ten).

Make note of the file and brand that you use for a saw - each file brand has a different shaped corner, and swapping them around will leave you filing the gullet apex sometimes and wasting time whereas a touch up with the same file size and brand will allow you to touch up something like a tenon in about five minutes or less.

lists and suggested sizes...

David Weaver

personally, I'd rather have a file a little longer with the same slimness if possible (so, not sure if a 4x slim and 6xx slim are the same in cross section, but if they are, I'd rather have the 6 xx slim - it gives you a longer stroke and more room to work around whatever your vise may be).

The lists are prescriptive from different people and there really aren't rules as hard and fast. When you see someone demand something like "you can't sharpen dovetail saws without needle files", they're in the weeds.

There's pretty much two rules:

1) the file needs to be large enough to cover the back side of the next tooth

2) it needs to have edges small enough that smaller-toothed saws don't have shallow round gullets, as they will actually pack sawdust and the teeth will clog. BTDT at one point seeing if I could sharpen everything with two files (one for 8 point crosscut saws through DT saws, and one for rip saws).

for 11 teeth per inch (12 points), 6xx slim should be fine.

Re: Saw sharpening Files?!

Jack Dover

The longer the file the easier it is to work with, one long smooth stroke is better than few short strokes, a long one is more consistent and a file wears slower. Also short files (their handler rather) have this annoying habit of catching or hitting your vise, a file too short might give you just an inch of a stroke. You have to consider a file's size too, a width of a face is proportional to its length, but out of suitable sizes a longer one would be my preference.

Re: Saw sharpening Files?!

Jack Dover

Any recommendation on sourcing decent needle files? I currently working through my back saws, most of them are 13ppi and higher. I've been using borg needle files sets, most of them are good for one saw that requires a lots of reshaping and then they can touch up better teeth, so not a great value. Also no idea what to do with the rest of the set. LV sells a needle file for ~16$ + shipping, that's a bit too much. McMaster would be next stop, but I'm just lost there.

Re: Saw sharpening Files?!

David Weaver

Unless the teeth are finer than 15 or 16 ppi, my preference is to sharpen a small tooth saw with a 4xx or 5xx file with a sharp corner.

I've been using nicholson 5xx for saws like that. I only have one saw finer than 16 points, and don't ever use it (though i recognize that tiny teeth may be valuable for someone cutting dovetails in really thin stock all the time -in that case, an expensive boutique or refurbished older saw wouldn't be necessary, though, nor would overly neat teeth).

As far as inexpensive needle files, I don't know of any that are any good. since I don't use needle files, I can't vouch that the following statement is true, but or regular files, it is for me:

* you may go through a file and sometime two on a really bad older saw getting the teeth in order

* once the teeth are set up, they should very very rarely need any correction (or even jointing) and I would guesstimate 10-15 touch ups per file

If you're restoring saws and you still prefer needle files, you may find that you can get the teeth in order with a 4xx or 5xx and then finish the job with a needle file.

I bought a set of turn of the century needle files from George a couple of years ago - they're austrian. I haven't seen any files made now that are even close to them in quality, so they must be difficult to make (thus the idea of a good imported needle file may be far fetched).

Re: Saw sharpening Files?!

John Aniano in central NJ

Jack,

I buy Grobet (Swiss - Glardon) files from MSC Direct.

https://www.mscdirect.com

Also, Rio Grande jewelry supply sells them. They also carry the Valtitan variety of files that are a bit harder tempered and last longer. But are more expensive...

https://www.riogrande.com

That said, I've no experience buying saw sharpening files other than buying new/old stock files and the modern Bahco brand already suggested. The Swiss files above work well for my needs.

Hope this helps,

John, just a satisfied customer of both firms...

Re: Saw sharpening Files?!

William Duffield

This is the full range of files Lie-Nielsen uses in manufacturing and resharpening their line of saws.

Re: Not to overwhelm...

Bruce McCrory

Historical background of Distton; AND, a Glossary- http://www.disstonianinstitute.com/glossary.html

I keep going to this source. Very helpful. Pretty sure he is Peter Taran, the guru-http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html

Try another of his articles, sharpening-

http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html

1. I think most agree that Nicholson went to cheap foreign (eastern) manufacture and durability of their tools now suck, big time. However, saw people say Mexican manufacture of same is much better.

2. Most filers have personal opinions, and there are countless ways to fix (or, ruin) your saw, so start on a crappy saw first. And, practice.

3. I have several western saws, never sharpened because my shoulder wouldn't permit use, so I have used throwaway pull saws for at least ten years. Counting maintenance--files, tools--throwaway has been cheaper than maintaining good western saws. You can even destroy one in the first 5 seconds of use.

4. My memory from others' comments says, one file per full repoint and sharpen.

Sorry about making this sound like "for dummies". One never knows where to start into the conversation.

Re: Saw sharpening Files?!

Jack Dover

Oh totally forgot about jewelry suppliers! Thanks a lot, prices there are half of LV, and afaik LV needle file is Grobet. Not sure what's special about Grobet, but their needle files are expensive everywhere. Will probably spend a bit of my allowance tonight.

Re: Saw sharpening Files?!

Jack Dover

That's exactly the case: I have 3 or 4 >15ppi saws which I like and use a lot. It's newer saws, 70ies or 80ies Sheffield manufacture, got them new, they're thin plated and have really small teeth. I have older saws with thicker plates too, got them from a gentleman in the LJ saws mega-thread a few years back, they're below 13ppi. For whatever reason my cuts are better with thin plated saws, no matter how much I was messing with set on thicker saws — a kerf just isn't as straight. But I digress. An idea of using 4xx on them is kinda scary, one saw was totally destroyed by using a bigger file a few years ago. It was a guinea pig saw bought for sharpening practice, but if anything would happen to my better saws PTSD would span years. A needle file gives a better visibility and doesn't move as much metal, so it feels safer for a beginner who did maybe a dozen or two successful sharpenings so far.

The issue here is that cheap needle files are, well, cheap and they do seem to produce a flat gullet. A flat gullet is a lesser issue since small toothed saws don't cut fast anyway, but you're totally right estimating these files are good for one saw at best. They go very slow very quick, so on average it's one saw with considerable reshaping and a few light touch ups, after that they don't produce metal dust almost at all. Surprisingly Husky needle files last longer and of a better quality, but buying a whole set for just one triangular file doesn't make a lot of sense.

I'll try 4xx or 5xx file once again, just need another guinea pig, the old one doesn't have teeth at all and waits for re-toothing exercise, which, at this rate, will happen in 2040.

Re: Not to overwhelm...

Jack Dover

I, for one, really appreciate the links. Even though I've read them before, there's always something that was missed or ignored. Many times I was reminded about pieces that were dismissed earlier and found them extremely valuable.

Re: Not to overwhelm...

Warren in Lancaster, PA

A lot of these internet gurus don't have much experience in day-to-day maintenance of a hand saw. We can get a good number of sharpenings out of one file.

I was watching a Williamsburg blacksmith file a latch many years ago. I asked about the life of the file. Another blacksmith, way in the back piped up, "It depends on who is using it."

Re: Not to overwhelm...

David Weaver

I vaguely recall a discussion that was a summary of saw gurus and from that came two definitive (absolute must statements):

* you must joint a saw each time you sharpen, and a two step joint may be even better (as in, clean up the teeth after jointing and then do a light joint to ensure that the last bit of the work is really all in line)

* files should be tossed after sharpening because you're wasting your time with a file that's a little dull

This isn't an assault on your post, by the way. They were credible sources.

But the missing link is that they're sharpening other peoples' saws and not using the saws in the cycle of significant work.

I have a couple of rip saws that I use regularly, as well as the frame saw (the frame saw has now probably split about 100bf of wood or more. I hope to one day be able to say that's 2000, it's pleasant to use.

I'm fairly sure I've never jointed a saw after the first jointing, and I cannot tell any difference from one saw to the next in use related to that.

And, also, I kind of like a file that's been used two or three times and is cutting but not brand new fresh grabby cutting. It makes for a very even-use feel for touching up a saw (on a rip saw, just moving the teeth down a little bit until the edge is crisp).

It's not really possible to put up with a rip saw (that's being used for ripping) that has more than a tiny bit of its initially sharpness gone. It goes in the vise, it gets probably two file strokes and it's good for ripping another couple hundred linear feet. It takes so long to file a saw 10 times that I'm guessing by saying that a decent saw and a good match of a file (as in, no intentionally overhard saws) will probably yield ten sharpenings per file, maybe more.

Touch up process is the same on cross cut. Just move the teeth down unless there's ongoing slow progressing reshaping going on, and then you move them a little bit with each sharpening if needed, and set only when necessary by feel.

The trouble for beginners seeking filing advice is that if they set up their own saws, they will have to go through some of that if they're used (unless you're really lucky and all of the teeth are similar height and size), and then filing after that will be different indefinitely (easier and less demanding). I have 10 or a dozen of several saw file sizes as I was blitzing through them setting up saws anew. I'm over doing that and am fairly sure I'll never use most of those files.