We are changing what Japan makes

Stories are for export too

Jack Dover

Japan is very good at most things they do and if they recognize any notion of success in something - they will apply all their best traits to it. I think many people figured that Japan exports not just physical goods, but also their culture and they're very good at it. There are many examples: martial arts schools barely represented in Japan, but having thousands of students abroad, niche philosophies that are way less popular in Japan than overseas, certain pop culture and so on.

Maybe an important factor here is that we as a consumerist society are very prone of making a fetish of anything consumable. I used to work alongside a guy so concerned with a cutting edge finish he spent half of his working time re-sharpening. I know quite a few "knife" "collectors" that buy "survival knives", all those knives are still flawless and factory sharpened. There are hundreds of IG accounts where weekend warriors sport 50 different water stones arranged by color, namedropping blacksmiths, but never show anything they've built. Best case they do a tool tray for their chisels, or a tool box or something like that. I think there was a story in the "Machinist bedside reader" about a guy just buying insane quantities of lathes and other machines, and dying never using any them, except disassembling a few of them for pure admiration. Youtube videos in a shop looking like a lab with tool cupboards open wide displaying every tool featured by FWW magazine ever, and I can go on. There's definitely a significant demand to buy a story, and Japan has the best stories to sell, so why wouldn't they? I personally think it's alright as long as there's a decent quality item sold together with a story and an option where I can buy just an item.

Amish, etc, too

David Weaver

I get the sense that the "simple life with discipline and structure" is part of the draw there. Similarly to the way it is with the Amish and peoples' idealization of what it's like to be Amish or Mennonite.

I'd guess from the Amish standpoint, the first time the Bishop told an outsider "no, absolutely no" for something they'd want to do, it'd be less ideal, and then a 3 hour church service sitting on a hard wooden backless bench would send the idealists packing.

Japanese culture is ideal for something like production automaking and for making extremely high quality factory knives without feeling entitled to asking the moon for them. We live in a bit of a bubble. I've never seen anything nicer than whatever the nicest euro set costco sells would be (the older friodur inox?) in a doctor's house in person here. Most of our older professional friends have the international henckels knives of the same pattern instead (which are awfully nice for the price - spain or something, i couldn't find a quality difference between them and the german inox). But the vast majority don't have anything like that, and have stamped knives from walmart. I've never seen them go hungry.

I've sharpened a lot of knives for folks, but it seems to be fewer lately. Nobody has ever given me anything nicer to sharpen than the aforementioned spain-marked henckels intl (really solid), and those have also not come back. Nobody has said why, but I can guess.

So, when we get even into something like a $75-$100 VG-10 knife from japan, it's not seen on the ground that often - there's no reason it would be.

I can guarantee that my mothers' knife drawer (which has knives with the tip broken off from using them to break ice) has nothing over $10, and it may have nothing over $5. I taught my dad to sharpen those knives with a washita stone and he's now banned from doing that, too.

Spot on

Jack Dover

Lots of people are in a pretty thick bubble and LARPing so hard they keep forgetting what makes a Japanese (or any other for that matter) craftsman a craftsman. There were a few now defunct mailing lists on Japanese carpentry and joinery where most people didn't speak a word in Japanese and were often quoting Toshio Odate on spirit and traditions. I was wondering why nobody quoted the part about being hit with a stick for not exhibiting sufficient respect to a tool? Or that he started at 16 and spend several years cold, hungry, tired and sleep deprived. I guess most of them wanted to just look like a Japanese craftsman, but not rather be a craftsman. Because it's the hard part.

Maybe this applies to kitchen knifes too. Sometimes I think my friends are buying the most expensive cutlery at Costco just because their guests will recognize it as the most expensive cutlery from Costco. It's not like they don't know where to get a better knife or that it's too expensive, it's rather a knife must be recognizable as an expensive one. Or there should be a tale — handmade from turbine blades by a retired blacksmith, limited production, two pieces only, one for me, another for Clint Eastwood or something equally ridiculous.

I used to sharpen knifes for others too, but I figured I should just make them less dull. A truly sharp edge on those knifes is damaged easily, a user feels it degraded quickly. A not too blunt edge stays like this for a long time, esp. if a user is advanced enough to give it a few swipes on any sharpener they might have (most don't even own a sharpener or a stone). Which is a shame, because a knife good for lifetime is very affordable and it's one of those little things that make our lives less annoying.

Re: Spot on

Clint Searl

The knife is gourmet, but the steak is overcooked.

Re: Spot on

David Weaver

(this is part of the reason that I suggested that people steel their knives, to run the initial edge off, but I made the apex on all of the knives fairly blunt. I received two follow ups from my spouse that recipients of the knives cut themselves by accident, but nobody mentioned it to me - I guess they didn't follow the advice to steel their knives. Not because I thought they needed to be steeled, but because I figured they could blunt their knives to closer to machine sharpener results if they tried to steel them).

The one thing that I sharpened for people that was a little bit iffy was soft serrated knives that were totally dull. I used a heavy compound on a hard buff and buffed them until all of the rounding was gone. They were evil sharp. I suggested the same for those - "these will be sharper than you're used to even though their shape has changed a little bit - steel them before you use them".

heavy buffing rounds the serrations some (buffing being like what wiley would call "tangent profile, not so much rounding the edges over much), but the result is far sharper than expected given the serrations looking rounded on the tip. Evil sharp, not suitable for the average person to use cutting a steak.

I guess the reality is even if you do a quick process, which is just a slightly blunt apex on the crystolon stone, then same bevel with a settled in india stone, and you use a loaded strop or buff to remove the burr, people will not be used to anything like that unless they send their knives to a restaurant sharpening service and are used to knives that come out of much better machines than a carbide hand scraper.

In order to not become a constant sharpening service, I offered to teach each submitter how to sharpen their knives, but none took me up on that. I also misjudged the idea that people who handed over really dull knives would learn to appreciate one that was moderately sharp with a fat apex , and maybe want to have knives that are moderately sharp all the time. The second hand feedback on cuts probably proves that wrong.

(if you saw my mother use a knife, you'd know she wasn't a good candidate. Her idea of vegetable cutting is to hold the vegetable against the knife and push it with her thumb until it splits off and her thumb is in contact with the knife (she splits vegetables rather than cutting them - instruction not to do that doesn't stick - from experience).

Re: Amish, etc, too

Warren in Lancaster, PA

In my neighborhood, the housewives really appreciate a sharp knife. Cutting the corn off thirty dozen ears for canning or freezing gets old fast with a poor tool. At Weaver's Store you can still buy kitchen knives of 1095 steel made in USA.

My neighbor has been gutting deer with the same knife since 1966. He bought it used for 50 cents when he was 12. "Good old steel".

Re: Spain Henckels Int.

Bruce McCrory

Most of our older professional friends have the international henckels knives of the same pattern instead (which are awfully nice for the price - spain or something, i couldn't find a quality difference between them and the german inox).

I can see the attraction of this specific manufacture. I picked mine up at a discount store, TJ Max, for a silly price--their own marked down markdown.

It is the one kitchen knife I reach for the most often.

It has a lilliputian handle, no clearance for knuckles, and an awkward profile. But it holds a decent edge for a long time, and does not crumble at the edge. It is slow to shape and sharpen, so I steel it instead. It has a different steel than all my other utensils.

It cuts all but strawberries well.

good point...

David Weaver

.I assumed that they knew what I was talking about. I should've just steeled them and not assumed they may appreciate them prior to steeling.

I"ve got a couple of small wusthof knives (made in the last 10 years). They steel easy because they're medium carbon can't really be overworked, and a serrated steel will remove some of the edge. That's probably more practical than the desires of a hand sharpener.

they must be made in different patterns...

David Weaver

I had a set of them in hand, which included serrated knives that were dull, but other than that I can only remember the chef's knife. In that case, the set had a heavy bolstered copy of the german version of the inox. It may be better than the german version that I have. Really nice.

Or maybe they're the same and I just have narrow hands.

A quick google finds the same chef's knife now at $76 (The spain version). The german version is $150. Eek.

that's supposedly a sale price, too.

I can't be long before spain gives way to china and the knives in china now (where wages are going up) go to indonesia or vietnam.

Re: Amish, etc, too

John in NM

I have several carbon steel kitchen knives, I'll take them over stainless any day. A couple of them are older than I am, the others are from manufacturers (like Opinel and Ontario) who still provide carbon lines.

Re: Amish, etc, too

David Weaver

I thought about responding earlier, but I'm using up my quota! The opinel knife blades are wonderful (they're woodworking tool hard and thin). Hard to use once one has a good lockback that's easier to manipulate around, but great for the price.

Last I looked, ontario still makes the butcher knife looking knives (brass riveted wood handles and ol hickory or whatever pattern) in 1095, but the hardness spec is mid 50s (not tried one - my mother had two knives of that style when I was a kid and no kidding, she never sharpened her knives, but those two and another carbon steel knife were always sharper than everything else remaining - she broke the third mentioned breaking ice).

There's a butcher knife supplier named Russel something or other that's also making $15 1095 knives.

I would bet some of those above are sold in amish stores (like lehmans, etc. I thought the ontario knives were sold at walmart, but I don't think they are - they've been at sams before though, but off and on, as has buck overproduction).

lastly, when I was looking around for forging instructions from knife people on 1095 (because I know they'd go bonkers over microstructure, etc, and go way past what's really necessary for our chisel work), I saw a reference for 1095CV, which is often the steel now in newer knives that say they're made from 1095. most places have it described as "similar with a little bit of alloying", but another more specific page pretty much said "not similar to 1095 and deliberately chosen as a label to attract attention based on 1095's reputation"

http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/Sharon_Steel/1095_cro-van.shtml

(could be worse - the manganese and small amount of vanadium would probably make it easier for me to get glass hard before tempering back. Too late, though. Used files have my heart, even though it's more expensive to use them than it is to use bar stock).

Re: Amish, etc, too

John in NM

The Opinel's I have are paring knives, not the folders. The first one I bought was maybe 15 years ago and was all of $6 new at the knife shop I was in. These days I think they are up to $20 for a pair (that shop would split up the pairs I gather).

The Ontario is one I got in a local junk store, probably dating to 1970's or before. Not a bad knife at all, but the blade is a bit heavier than I prefer. I recall these being sold in good hardware stores more so than Walmart, but then I don't spend much time in Walmart if I can possibly avoid it.

My favorite is the one from the camp. What I can read of the mark is ??aco Forge. Cheap knife from the 1950's I bet or earlier. Thin blade, but takes a good edge.

Re: they must be made in different patterns...

Bruce McCrory

Prices have definitely fallen in the past few years. If it uploads, the image of mine must be an older design of the "Classic". It and current offerings are the most similar. The blade is nearly 6-inches, and total is a little over ten. Most cutting is done in the outer two inches.

The punched sheet metal Henckel pieces are pretty soft steel and don't get very sharp. China, naturally.

Re: they must be made in different patterns...

David Weaver

That's a nice knife. I'm inclined to find one used to replace a twin works chef's knife that doesn't have the nice bolster.

Re: I need to stay away from WC!

Bruce McCrory

This forum is killing me financially. I'm not happy with a Henckels that David likes so I go out and buy a handful of "cheaper", but not cheapest, knives from ChefKnivesToGo. All because you guys play with knives, and money.

Hah! I specifically picked Westernized and 'japanesey' styles having different metals, handles unlike the Henckels, thicker profile blade (except the 270mm sujihiki slicer so I can pretend to rapier tomatoes, and bread) and; comfortable choil. I think I accidentally picked one with a single taper.

Naturally, went through the entire site and added wood knives (for eels?), and famous, gotta-have stone for a new hobby with straight razors to play chicken.

Re: I need to stay away from WC!

Wiley Horne

All in all, a great day! Good work! It’s Christmas!

Wiley

The internet in general...

David Weaver

is one giant targeted advertisement. Though genuine discussion is probably more potent than targeted advertisements from uninterested parties.

I sometimes think back to my youth (the internet, or more accurately, the www, appeared when I was about to graduate high school). There are two major changes that I can remember.

* wal mart

* internet

There's not that much I buy at walmart, but when I was a kid working for not much money an hour, suddenly, fishing gear price was halved. vs. the sporting goods store that we had, and so was anything else that could be found there (baseball gloves, bats, etc). Identical items. We had no idea that we were getting such a treatment from the local store (and there isn't a story of how much worse walmart is for EEs as the sporting good store owner kept it for themselves - they paid all of their employees minimum wage, no benefits).

(we did know that if we were willing to drive half an hour to a bigger town that the prices were better, but for some reason back then, we thought that was too far to drive regularly).

At any rate, any other store in my small town had prices that you'd describe as "if you do enough to make us get up, we'll order that for you or stock it".

I remember collectors of old tools, but never a user of them at the same time. Now you can just get unlimited information and when you need something, spend a short while learning what you need to not buy something that turns out to be totally useless for your purposes.

I wouldn't be woodworking without the internet - I'd be on a golf course swearing about how long the round was taking. Much prefer woodworking and tool making by a factor of 10.