Est. 1998 — 27 years of woodworking knowledge
Burrs for us mere mortals *LINK*
Jim Matthews
Brian Boggs goes to some credible lengths to explain his plane blade sharpening method that avoids raising a burr. (The linked Vijayo is titled "Battling the Burr")
Time spent sharpening and material costs (honed steel) add up in a production shop.
For hacks like me, raising a burr is the only way I can verify I'm ready for the next honing step. I can't see them off my finer stones, but the feel is unmistakable.
https://youtu.be/KquvzBmEYck
For me, definitely yes
Bill Tindall, E.Tn.
I see (10X lens) a burr forming before the tip has abraded past previous wear. Now a disclaimer, I sharpen way later in the game than probably everyone here so I do not know how relevant this information is to anyone else.
"this isn't a production shop"
David Weaver
early on, a friend who got me into woodworking had an all power tool shop. His wife marveled at the tonnage of equipment in the shop and the low output.
when i first started, my parents' desire to squeeze the last nickel out of everything (assuming they may die of starvation at some point in the future because of that nickel) encouraged me to be as stingy as possible even with simple plane irons.
Thanks to the unicorn now, I think I could probably work with those cheesy $3 buck plane irons. Actually, I know I could ,because one planed several pieces of wood to a mirror and planed for a long time in a rosewood billet with silica particles visible to the naked eye.
At any rate, I got over not wasting money a long time ago, but the time factor....
...I flippantly said to my friend's wife as we walked up the steps with beers in hand .."hey, this isn't a production shop".
I also solved the time problem long ago with sharpening. A grinder and a washita. The power was out today. I wanted to make a video dispel the idea that sharpening unicorn plane irons would be a hit or miss thing for long. The power went out. What do we do when the power goes out? surely not make any videos showing a spinning buffer. but I didn't want to take any of the irons I'd set aside for the video, so I found an extra buck iron and sharpened it on the washita, alternating front to back and no stropping. I'm fairly sure it would've raised a shaving half of a thousandth thick (just experimenting with things based on the above). The buffer method for plane irons is interesting and it makes a wonderfully uniform edge. I think using the washita took less time on a soft iron like that, though. The edge was still stunning.
When the power came on, made me question whether or not the trouble was worth it with the buffer for the plane iron. But on chisels ... it's bliss. I don't know what they're doing to sharpen in boggs' shop, or what kind of expensive equipment my be involved to avoid dealing with a wire edge, but I can't imagine it would be more economical in time or cost than the washita and a $3 iron.
But no matter what the economics, thank goodness we're not running a production shop.
I have spent near four figures on a single sharpening stone (but not because someone convinced me that it was a good idea). Some of the new setups that are being sold now that make a shapton DGLP look cheap are really appalling to me.
omnibus...
David Weaver
.i'm going to have to start labeling every post "omnibus" at the end.
Re: I will be spending some hours studying that si
Wiley Horne
The text and SEM photos toward the end are saying that, depending upon the exact sequence of sharpening grits, the very sharp edge at the end could be made up of mostly damaged grains. And therefore, won’t last long in actual work, though it may slice newsprint just fine after sharpening.
I believe this is also what Warren (and the late David Barnett) are also saying.
Questions:
1. Is this part of what the unicorn treatment is doing? Polishing off much of the damaged metal, to get down to intact crystal?
2. A propos of Warren’s statement, does an Arkansas stone not scratch? I’m not arguing here—just trying to get it straight.
3. And if true of Arkansas stones, is it also true of other natural stones that are similar, such as Japanese natural stones?
Wiley
Re: I will be spending some hours studying that si
Bill Tindall, E.Tn.
does an Arkansas stone not scratch? I’m not arguing here—just trying to get it straight.
David and I are having this conversation. Do you see scratches on the back of the whatever it was that was sharpened with an ARK stone? I remarked about the odd texture and absence of scratches.
David proved metal is being removed. It no doubt is being burnished too. Silica is orders of magnitude softer than aluminum oxide. An ARK stone is bound to not penetrate and mill shavings as effectively. Hence a lot of energy is going into plowing and rubbing.
Do you see people streaming to ARK stones because it is readily apparent that they produce a longer life edge that is easy to determine? When alternatives became available did people try them and return to AKK stones? If there is something there only the Princess that can feel a pea beneath a stack of mattresses will appreciate the difference.
Going from here to how well ARK stones will leave a more durable edge is a stretch too far for the data we have.
I'm omniborous, too...
Jim Matthews
My kids are inevitably rolling their eyes anytime I actually know the answer to something.
They only pay attention when I'm making things up as I go along, waiting for the obvious reference to some 80's pop song to give it away.
Re: I will be spending some hours studying that si
David Weaver
as to the rest, I don't know, but you can get the durability improvement just by rolling the edge on a stone, and the same sharpeness as not rolling the edge if the geometry is altered as we've been discussing.
As far as stones that behave like novaculite stones:
* charnley forest
* llyn idwall
(i may have spelled that wrong).
Idwals are perhaps slightly slower and finer than a black arkansas, but I only have two of them. charnley forest stones can be as fine as an arkansas stone but they're not usually as hard, so keeping them completely settled in is a little bit harder. I wouldn't choose one over a black ark or trans ark.
The two idwalls that I have are slightly smaller than 8x2, but super fine.
There are a few natural japanese stones that aren't scratchy but also don't lose particles to most steels, but most of them will still give up a few particles to softer iron. ozuku mine made a lot of glassy stones that don't give up particles, some are scratchy, but most aren't that nice to use.
Re: I will be spending some hours studying that si
Warren in Lancaster, PA
1. I believe that what the unicorn treatment is doing is removing vulnerable material, kind of like a fortress with rounded corners. A sharp edge is quite vulnerable to any lateral stress. It is especially vulnerable if there are deep scratches, no matter how small. Rather than have a vulnerable edge dull haphazardly, it controls the very first part of the dulling to make a more solid fortress.
2. Arkansas stones do abrade; the oil does get black. However they also seem to polish by burnishing. They may be thought of as a smooth flat surface with tiny fissures and crevices. Rough spots on the edge catch on the crevices, but as the bevel is polished, abrasion really slows down.
3. Natural stones are probably more complex than synthetic stones. Some stones have features that a designer probably would not have thought of. What is true of all natural stones is the need to discern what the stone has to offer.
Re: Intelligent abrasive sheet sharpening
Sgian Dubh
"One glass plate 12 x 12 will hold 8 grades of paper in 3" strips. This format covers grits from 180 to 2000 on one plate in the close spaced steps recommended. Coarse material removal is on a separate plate of 80,100, 120 zirconia abrasive."
Bill, the chap who wrote the original 'Scary Sharp' thing may not have understood abrasive material; I don't know if that's the case. All I know is that the method, or versions of the method, developed adherents and it's still popular today to a greater or lesser extent. It works for quite a few people, apparently including yourself from time to time, still.
If your work is undertaken in a workshop I see no problem with having a piece of 12" X 12" glass with eight grades of paper on it ready for sharpening. I'm not a fan, but that is probably because of always thinking of using abrasive paper to sharpen as a stop-gap measure, as mentioned earlier. I suppose the other factor is that my work has regularly involved an element of site work as well as being workshop based: in that circumstance I'm quite happy to chuck my regular oilstone (or keep a spare oilstone) in my site kit. I'm not sure I would want to chuck in a lump of glass and its bits of abrasive paper into that kit though, ha ha. Slainte.