Yet another chisel edge test

Why I mention that question..

David Weaver

..what's traditional...

I was picking george's brain a few years ago about design, asking him for a list of rules of thumb. Of course, this is an oversimplification and he gave a couple, but he mentioned something to me that stuck.

If you don't know that you're a good designer, then you'd better be able to copy good designs, and for many, that's the limit.

The point of that being that you're unlikely to have a clue about what's good and what's not if you don't become accustomed to the elements in fine work.

I've used flat bevels. I've used hollow bevels. I've used about every kind of stone I can think of aside from the ones regard not to be that good. At some point, stuff was introduced in the 1700s that wasn't traditional to that point. It's likely there was 75 "stuffs" introduced for each one that stuck.

I'm sure that each new thing was perceived as a threat, and I'm sure there were those who decried no need for them.

This is superior to a flat bevel. I'm reminded of george because I'm not trying to find things superior to a flat bevel, I walked into this backwards just being lazy on a number of things. But I have no lack of familiarity with setting up a flat bevel that doesn't fail at the edge in normal use. that was the first step toward this long ago, realizing that most "good" chisels and "bad" chisels are separated less between each other when set up properly than a good chisel is from itself when set up properly and not properly.

Setting out to improve on "traditional" is usually fruitless, and in the case for most chisels, is probably done mostly with the manufacturer's ease in mind.

parsing your reply

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I was wondering how long this exciting work on the Unicorn Profile would go on before you entered the conversation with something negative. You are reliable, and predictable.

For over a decade you have "promoted" innovations in sharpening and steels. I would have chosen the words "investigated" and "reported" to describe this work.

Remember cpm 3v? Remember....? My bench chisels that have built several dozen major pieces of furniture since I made them are this steel. At the time the steel was new and recommendations for heat treating biased toward toughness. They dull by deforming at the tip like most of the chisels people use. I am optimistic David's discovery of the Unicorn Profile will fix this deficiency. BTW, what furniture have you made in this time?

Remember loose diamond sharpening? I did promote this technique and use it routinely. So do some others. What is your point? Are you complimenting me for telling others about its advantages?

Remember pm v11? Of course. I analyzed it remember?. Best steel on the market for western chisels. Certainly a game changer for LV. Wouldn't you agree, but maybe not for people that only talk about wood working and don't make anything.

You have constantly belittled the efforts of those who use traditional methods.

In 2011 you told me I needed tougher chisels because of some imaginary problem which I have not had. Now you pissed me off attributing behavior that I did not do. I could care less what you do because I don't see any evidence that you actually do any woodworking. I would not waste the electrons to comment on your wood working notions.

All these innovations and you were still unable to perform routine work without damaging an edge? I will point out the obvious. If you don't build anything your tools don't get dull and it matters not how you sharpen them.

I cannot diagnose a problem from 500 miles away, but something is very wrong here.

And finally, if I need advice on how to do woodworking I find it at a source that does quality work. My favorite source is the Headley shop, 4 generations of making Period Furniture. Whatever Steve and Jeff does is backed by years of experience making stuff, not talking about it.

Thanks, you as well

Re: parsing your reply *LINK*

Warren in Lancaster, PA

You wrote in 2011:

Why Warren (and others) need tough chisels

Now when I mentioned this you wrote:

Now you pissed me off attributing behavior that I did not do. I could care less what you do because I don't see any evidence that you actually do any woodworking. I would not waste the electrons to comment on your wood working notions.

Have you no shame?


Warren needs tough chisels

Re: The full sharpening cycle

Paul grover

Thanks for posting the video. Been trying to follow this discussions, pictures sure helped me. Thanks Paul

Predictable

Jim Matthews

“It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing it.”

― Terry Pratchett

Added a PM-V11 test

Winston

A quick follow-up to the previous post with the flat-honed vs. buffed Buck Brothers chisel. I just tested a flat-honed Veritas PM-V11 chisel (30 degrees, finished on a Shapton Pro 12000). I'm presenting the images of the Veritas chisel here alongside the Buck Brothers images I already posted. I'll skip the pictures of the chisels when freshly sharpened and just show the post-chopping pictures.

This is the flat-honed Buck Brothers chisel looked like after chopping off 20 pieces, looking at the bevel, back, and edge head-on (these are the same as from my previous post):

The flat-honed Veritas chisel looked like after chopping off 20 pieces:

An aside: A quick look at the pictures of the flat-honed Veritas PM-V11 makes it seem like it was as damaged as the flat-honed Buck Bros, but I don't think that's the case. Or at least, I think the nature of the damage was different. I think the Veritas was more jagged and the Buck Bros was more folded. Just speculating: I think the PM-V11 is chipping on a small scale, which leaves jagged edges that are still helpful for cutting.

Here's the buffed Buck Brothers after chopping off 20 pieces (these are the same as from my previous post):

*****

As I noted in another post, after three chops, I checked if the flat-honed Veritas was capable of shaving, and found that it wasn't. The buffed Buck Brothers chisel could still shave hair after 20 chops.

For those curious what the edge damage looks like at a more normal scale, here's the Veritas after the chopping. There's a light placed directly to the right of the blade, so that's what you're seeing a reflection of.

(In case you're wondering why there's damage near the blade's right side even though I was chopping narrower pieces of wood, it's because I apparently have a tendency to chop not quite straight. This caused the chisel to shift laterally as I chopped, and then that corner also tended to hit the chopping surface first when I cut through the test piece of maple.)

And here's the buffed Buck Bros after the chopping:

Unfortunately, I don't have a good photo of the flat-honed Buck Brothers chisel after the chopping.

Addendum to the video

Winston

After making the video, I used the chisel for a bit of paring and found that I got a bit of edge damage. I could tell because there was a slight loss of light reflection near the middle of the blade.

I just took it to the buffing wheel for a few more seconds, this time with the blade less tangent to the wheel; that is, it was pointed more inward to the wheel. Then the tiny micro-bevel looked perfect and I was able to keep on paring without getting any visible damage.

The point is, I think I under-buffed the chisel in the video, but it was easily corrected after seeing the result from a little usage.

Another thing I forgot to mention: chisels made of a harder steel will require more buffing to achieve the edge profile.

Re: Added a PM-V11 test

David Weaver

Thanks Winston! My pmv11 chisel arrives today. If I can keep the spouse at arms length, there will be a lot of testing this weekend. You confirmed my suspicion that the difference between methods is probably bigger than the difference between chisels.

I would suspect the v11 will take twice as long to buff due to its abrasion resistance.

Tested a buffed PM-V11 chisel

Winston

I just tested a buffed Veritas PM-V11 chisel. Honed on a Shopton Pro 1000, then buffed. As expected, it passed with flying colors. Buffing took longer than for the Buck Bros chisel, which is not surprising.

Photos below are after chopping off 20 pieces of the maple test piece. I stopped taking edge-on photos because it takes a lot of time to set up each one, and I don't think they were providing much more information than the bevel and back photos.

At the end, it seems subjectively slightly sharper than the buffed Buck Bros chisel -- it feels sharper and can shave hair a bit more easily. But those differences are trivial compared to difference between buffed vs. unbuffed.

Re: Tested a buffed PM-V11 chisel

David Weaver

I found the v11 chisel to work through a set amount of wood a little bit more easily than the AI MK2 chisels, but I'm not sure why. I think it's the amount of chromium in the alloy (the friction planing is less than O1, too).

I don't know that bill is convinced.

I didn't get quite as perfect of behavior with V11 as with japanese steel and O1, but it still got through the material faster.

It hones about half as fast on the diamond hone and definitely takes longer to buff- I may have come up slightly short with buffing.

Only the japanese chisel that I used for testing makes it through a set amount of maple with fewer mallet strikes.

I did see more improvement in the less robust chisels than in the V11, though, with the buffing, mostly because there was less room for improvement. Same for the japanese chisel.

Re: Yet another chisel edge test

Nico

I can clearly see in the magnification the very tip of the edge is closer to 50 degrees which is why it cuts so long. I've been sharpening my Japanese chisels like this for almost 10 years. A flat 20-22 degree bevel and I finish the edge on a very fine suita with a slurry holding the chisel at 45-50 degrees.

same as you, but less long...

David Weaver

and somewhat steeper bevel.

The general consensus with chippy chisels is to keep steepening them, but it seems like the keen edge of a japanese chisel is hardly worth it if things keep getting pushed well above 30 to prevent chipping.

I've been keeping japanese chisels around 25 degrees, sizing the steepened bevel based on how heavy the work is. But I can remember the first time I did this to a chisel was mortising a plane body, and it wouldn't have been quite 10 years now.

Perhaps 2013.

I never made the roll that steep, though, either. Mine were probably larger and more gradual, but same as it doesn't seem to matter here with the buffer