i need more than a few good quality measuring instruments and naturally have a limited budget so i'd like to apply my money wisely. i want quality, not junk( i own that already) so i'm willing buy the most expensive item, if that the only alternative. but it would be foolish to not explore some less expensive item that still provide a good quality experience. i can accept some trade off but don't really want to dabble in "fixer uppers".
i need a decent 12" combination square, so if you use a cheaper model with good results, i'd love to hear what you use
You should have been in the WoodCentral Chat Room yesterday evening, where we discussed just that subject, and provided some excellent recommendations on combination squares and other layout tools to one of our enthusiastic regular participants. Bob and I, and often Ellis himself participate in the General Chat Monday evenings and in the Hand Tool Chat on Tuesdays. Several experienced turners participate on Wednesdays. We're there every week for one to three hours to answer your questions and discuss issues.
For your needs, do you prefer a 12", 6" or 4" square (or one of each)? Do you just need the square/miter head, or do you also need a center finder head? How about a protractor head, too? What graduations do you want on the blade? 4R, 16R or Metric? Does it need to be Made in USA, or will Chinese do?
On the Forum, narrowing this down could take hours, if not days, and several wild goose chases into several tangential swamps, while in the chat room, you could have the correct answer, and a link to the "buy" button, in a matter of minutes.
Sorry you missed it. You are correct--the hand tool chat is on Tuesdays, and that is the best time to ask these questions. Monday's chat's designated subject is general woodworking. Even power tool woodworkers need to use layout tools, so it is not really surprising that someone would ask about combination squares on a Monday.
Your question was an opportunity for me to pull out and climb up on my soapbox (totally handmade with hand tools from riven firewood, felled with an axe) and promote the fora, which we think are under-utilized.
Now, I'm getting down off of it, to strongly suggest that you visit Harry Epstein for Made in USA combo squares by Products Engineering Company. The best deals are on the blemished models. All the PEC tools are extremely accurate. I can't detect any deviation on any of them from the accuracy of my Starretts.
Here are links to a couple of my recommended models:
First, a 4" 4R (graduated in 8ths, 16ths, 32nds and 64ths) double square. This one is either in my shirt pocket or out on my bench at all times. It doesn't do everything you want a 12" combination square to do, but it is used often enough that I keep it always at hand, and go after a larger, more complicated square only for special occasions.
These are also available with rules with 16R and EM graduations and in two part and three part combos. They also offer 16" and 24" rules from PEC that fit these square heads. If you can't find what you want on their website, let me know, and I'll find it for you. Sometimes, their search engine has some problems.
I have Starrett squares (mostly), and have never regretted it. I also have a few products by Mitutoyo (very small bevel-edge fixed square, 6" digital mic) and also PEC (6" double square). I have found both Mitutoyo and PEC to be just fine. You could check on Amazon for example and see what you think, or perhaps others can chime in on these.
I have a Starret, and it is really good. I guess it must have been on sale or something, because I don't greatly love those things. I also bought a Stanley for pennies, it has a plastic interface between the two surfaces. It is insanely accurate. Probably cost around 10, it rides on my Occidental tool belt.
Overall my favourite squares are the metal machinist square for their precision for set-up, they are good for layout, and they are cheap.
I like the Japanese squares as they are flexible which allows them to lie flat like a framing square, in addition because of the way the corners are cutbut also offer great alignment for square lines. They are lighter, less cold. They come square but are easy to adjust if, as with all metal squares they hit the floor and loose accuracy. They take pencil and knife lines extremely well, but won't blur wet lines. And most outstanding of all, if you need a metal square, these ones whether used as squares or rulers do not slide around on the work.
Another great choice are wooden shop made squares. I made one like 30 years ago, as a first experiment at making slip joints. Didn't think it would be useful or reliable. Turns out they are better than metal squares at most things. I made mine out of a nice piece of maple, and finished it fairly nicely with drying oil. That may have made it slippery. They are light, warm, very accurate, when dropped they get a ding but generally hold their square. Less likely if dropped to make a ding in work. They are cheaply made in any size. Woodworkers that don't trust wood as a technical material have a big hole in their education.
The best thing about my Starret is the precise adjustable angle.
I have gotten used Starrett squares for the price of new alternatives. Lee Valley used to sell a good square but I think they don't last time I checked. I picked up a dandy square, equal quality to Starrett, at the Old tool Collectors meet in GA for $10. The blade says "made in USA, hardened" and nothing else. It is blue instead of Black.
I would have bought the Starrett without thinking much about it, except that
Starrett at that time did not make a 6" double square with satin chrome blade, though their 4" double square did have the satin chrome blade. Go figure.
I'm still not sure what the 'blem' is on the one Harry Epstein shipped--looked fine to me. I've had it for some years now. It's tight and accurate. Finish is still like new. Incidentally, the stock width is exactly 1" (mine mics 1.001"), which on an odd chance could be useful. I seem to recall that the PEC 6" has a little shorter stock than the Starrett (may be wrong on this), but I had to have the satin chrome blade to see the markings well, which ruled out the Starrett.
I bought the PEC squares from Epsteins when they first came out. I already had a Sterrett 12" so I got a 24" and the 6". I've found the 24" invaluable.
That is a PEC, the same as the ones we recommended here. I'm almost positive that the Made in USA squares that Lee Valley carries or carried are also PEC.
i need a decent 12" combination square, so if you use a cheaper model with good results, i'd love to hear what you use
Joe, I have a couple of Starrett 12"/300mm combination squares I purchased inexpensively on eBay many years ago. They are really excellent quality- and performance-wise. However, they do not get much use.
My go-to are 4" and 7" machinist squares. These are great for small and larger joinery, and may be had quite cheaply. A 12" combo square would be cumbersome for such tasks. I have a 6" Starrett double square, again from eBay, and this is a great tool for the smaller, furniture sized work I do.
In my opinion, the 12" square is a carpenter's tool, where it is used for larger joinery, and is a compromise for layout. In the shop I need something longer than 12" for lay out. I most use an 21" long wooden square I built.
I have a 6" that came from either Home Depot or Lowes. I bought it as a beater to go in the tool belt when we were building our house and all the buildings that followed. Turns out its a decent square and a fairly useful size.
Starrett gets points for pretty, but as easy as it is to check a square, and as little as woodworking actually needs Starrett kind of square, I would suggest trying a cheapie first. Doesn't much matter where you get it, as long as you can check it before you buy and keep an eye on whether the slot wears or not.
I started my woodworking life with a Craftsman 12 combination square. Still have it. Over time it was replaced by a used Starrett. For every time I use it I use a 4" double square a hundred times. That is not to say, don't get the 12 " combination square. But consider the possible utility of the small double square.
Always good to see you and other regulars on the board, both new and from way back. I am afraid my attendance here ebbs and flows -- though I love the fora -- and I've always been much more of a lurker than anything.
Now I'm off to my geography lesson, since you've given me some water to find!
