What are our goals as woodworkers?

Re: What are our goals as woodworkers?

Patrick Gibbons

This is another one of those subjects that will probably generate passions, misunderstandings and vitriol. Cool. Bring it on. More and more I want to do green woodworking. I need access to green wood. A chicken or egg proposition. I'm also interested in more than woodworking. To me it's all craft. I want to do more blacksmithing, knives and tools mostly, and leather work. I agree with you about doing the same thing in greater numbers and developing specific skills. I want to get proficient with the knife, axe, drawknife, adze and nonrectilinear projects. My opinions are more frequently in the minority here and I feel that a lot of what I read here misses the point. But I feel the same way about my family members and friends at church and old friends who know where my skeletons are buried. So I guess I love you guys even if you are a bunch of idiots. I'm an idiot too and glad to be in the club. Now where did my beer go?

Re: What are our goals as woodworkers?

Darren Brewster

I guess short term, my goals are just to fart around, have fun, and learn some skills. I'm grateful if I can get 1/2 hour of shop time in a week, so I don't have any great aspirations. But one day when I have a dedicated space, and some real free time to put towards woodworking, I hope to get better. Maybe not to a professional level, but the ability to design something and execute it without compromise. Although I think I am opposite of you, I have no ambition to master any one skill, I really do want to be able to do a little of everything competently.

Re: What are our goals as woodworkers?

wilbur

I’m not sure what or where your Frank Klausz quote is in reference to, but in conversations I’ve had with him, he says that overall the best woodworking being done today is by advanced hobbyist woodworkers, simply because we’re willing to put in the time to do a good job.

My goal in woodworking? Whatever makes me happy. Sometimes it’s doing a project. Sometimes it’s figuring out what makes the tools tick, even if it means digging into the esoterica. It’s not an either/or thing.

Re: What are our goals as woodworkers?

david weaver

There is so much klausz material out there that I have little chance of finding it. He might recall it if you ask him sometime, I know he lives out there near you.

He's probably right that (at least without viewing the top 1% of work being done) that most of the best work is being done by skilled amateurs because there just isn't much market for the high end work done as one-offs, at least not at a shop rate of $60-$90 an hour or whatever people often claim their shop rates are in a woodworking shop.

I know a few professional woodworkers out here. To a T, they all make restaurant furniture (tables, especially of the slab distressed variety) or cabinetry. The exception being a guy I met who bought my table saw several years ago. He is a designer, and the woodworking is incidental to his design work, but he does do awfully good work.

But all of that said, most of what is made even by skilled amateurs now is pretty middling compared to the good quality work that was done 200 years ago. Very few people are competent carvers, and very few are good at classical design elements. I'm not too good at either of those, though I'm getting better at spotting what makes good classical design. I recognize that's the direction I want to go, or will want to go, especially as the kids get older and I have more time.

Re: passions !!

david weaver

That keeps showing up. I was just reading comments on youtube on a horrifying video, one of those things where someone doesn't know much about what they're doing but they have a large subscribership so they can't resist mortifying the few who would actually know something about woodworking (in the old days, they would've been the type that did a project, wrote a book, did a project, wrote a book, never doing enough time to learn to do good projects instead)...well, and linking amazon to whatever they were using in the video to try to get some sale dollars.

Anyway, the comments were filled with "that's my passion!!" from various users.

I think that word must be making a big charge into being used a lot. It's replacing the word amazing, because amazing has been used so many times that a new word is needed to replace that. "Best ever" was already worn out before that. "I digress" has also been picked up by people who would really never use words like "I digress". :P

Something that comes into my mind every time I bring up anything related to this is Raney Nelson, who frequented the forums a while ago, blew up one day either here or woodnet (I think it was woodnet) and went on a diatribe about the discussions never advancing to the next level. When I complain about us being impressed by rudimentary things, and that after 8 years of discussion on various boards with the comments that still draw the most heat being whether or not this or that internet woodworking personality is more or less legit than (fill in the blank), I think of Raney. And I really don't want to start a blog myself, personally, but I get a little less interested in the forums as time goes on and I'm nearing my end on them. This is the last one I post on, and even here, it seems like the discussions of the gurus and what type of guru they really are get all of the traffic, and the discussions of substance get little. One only has to look at the front page here.

(and I don't think this should start any arguments, it's probably more of a statement of what transient state any of us are in at this point. Very few of us will pick one state and make it the final one and do it for decades and decades).

Fear is what motivates me

CJ in MPLS

I mention fear not in the sense that I'm afraid of woodworking, though my Unisaw does scare the hell out of me from time to time. Rather I'm referring to the uncertainty, discomfort and general doubt that surrounds each new thing we do.

I've got two large file cabinet drawers finished and sitting in my garage. They've been there for near to four months because I cannot bring myself to slice up a $200 sheet of plywood to make the cabinet the drawers are intended for. It will be fine, I'm sure. But the fear of screwing it up is real and makes me put it off, like the kid who won't put his face in the water down at the beach. Soon I'll make that fateful first cut and then invite my wife out to admire the cut and give me a pat on the head.

So, what motivates me in woodworking is identifying fears and then overcoming them. So what if the project is shite? I still did it. Next time it will be better. And maybe, I hope, I'll be a bit braver out in the world at large too.

Re: What are our goals as woodworkers?

wilbur

But all of that said, most of what is made even by skilled amateurs now is pretty middling compared to the good quality work that was done 200 years ago. Very few people are competent carvers, and very few are good at classical design elements.

Based on what I’ve seen, I have to disagree. Looking at pieces at various woodworking shows (The Woodworking Show, The Northeastern Woodworkers Association’s show, Woodworking in America, and other places), there are plenty of hobbyist woodworkers making pieces that stand up to historic examples. And the examples I’m thinking of have plenty of carved elements as well as classical design elements.

In addition, over time it seems that the quality of the work has gotten better over the past several years, not worse. It’s really not as bad as you think.

Re: What are our goals as woodworkers?

david weaver

I've seen some fine work around here, from one semi-pro maker, and from another semi pro maker who is making 18th century stuff.

I guess my bend on your comment is that people tend to interpret that as meaning that a lot of amateurs are doing work of that level, but they are not. Few are, but there are those few.

200 years ago, every professional shop in a reasonably populated area would've been capable of making those pieces, and probably faster than they are made today despite having less tooling.

Hand tools are on the upswing, it's pretty to see by the demand for them, but we're getting a little ahead of ourselves about the general quality of work that's getting done with them. Excellent from a few - enough to show at vendor stands at craftsman markets and small shows, but without too much regard for design from most.

What are our goals as craftsmen

Bob Hackett

For me there are two things at work, developing my skills and chasing the Muse/vision.

The development of skills is applicable across a wide spectrum of applications. They range from developing major skills like patience, design, ergonomics and personal energy efficiency. My major skill sets serve me well regardless of what I work with. I work with metal,stone, wood and bone.

Chasing thee Muse/vision has to do with my partnership with the project at hand. Some partnerships are short term, like preparing a new garden bed for example. You bring all you`ve learned in the past and apply it to help you both prepare for and carry you through this next event. It builds upon and is integrated with everything that came before it.

I have never been one for making exact duplicates of anything unless I`m aiming toward either a matched set of something or trying to refine a particular skill I need to practice. Making exact duplicates of a single project does nothing for me except prove I can find even more space to store jigs if I have to.

I tend to make something, look at it, decide what I`d want to change about it if and when I make it again. For me there is little reward involved in removing all the "craftsmanship of risk" . some may find that exciting but I`m not one of them. For me it`s all about challenging my skills and abilities. I`f it`s not challenging then it`s not fun. If it`s not fun then I soon find myself wondering what besides the money keeps me in it and moving forward. I`ve never been able to produce my best when money was my sole motivating factor. Perhaps that`s another skill set I need to work on.

Heirarchy of skills

Bob Hackett

I think you`ll find that in the past design was what the master/shop owner said it was. The top guy picked the design and the folks subordinate to that person handled the execution of that design according to his vision or the plans handed to them. Different skills worked at different levels in a symbiotic relationship. At the bottom of that ladder the folks had little to no input, the only choices they had were to become skilled at their task and to show promise in others or begin looking for another job before they were replaced.

Re: What are our goals as woodworkers?

Jack Guzman from Maine

My main goal when I started out was to learn everything I needed in order to build furniture.As I learned the skills and successfully built pieces for gifts or for me or even some for sale I found I liked different processes and disliked others.I discovered that I very much disliked repetition,and trying to make perfectly straight perfectly proportioned square objects in perfect alignment. It was boring work.

I was asked by a clock repairman friend if I could build a case for an antique movement for a type 1 regulator. This challenge I attacked with eagerness and after a long struggle I succeeded to my complete satisfaction. I found that I loved the process. No boring repetitious aspects.It was all challenge and creation. I made lots of clock cases but soon discovered that I needed to be able to work on movements also and my bad eyes and arthritic hands prevented this so I started looking elsewhere.

A recently deceased friend was doing a windsor chair demo at my local historical village museum. His name was Fred Chellis and he taught at Michael Dunbars Windsor chair institute. I fell in love with one sample he had for sale,but when I saw the price I decided I would learn to make my own.

So,four years later,with a little help from Fred,Mr Dunbar's book,Curtis Buchanan's videos and Pete Galberts blog among other sources I managed to make chairs to my liking.I found that my arthritis was not a hindrance to these processes nor was my eyesight. So I found my niche. My comfort zone. I have set up my chair shop for ease of use and accumulated all the necessary equipment and tools.Hopefully I can put out some interesting variations on this most durable and beloved of American chairs.---Jack

My current web of goals includes

Chuck Nickerson

getting better (technique and build-time) at constructing and evaluating the projects/sketches in my WW design notebooks.

I started WWing because the Shopsmith demo at a home show looked like fun. As ideas came faster than project-completion, I've kept ideas as sketches in notebooks (2+). Not every idea/sketch is worthy of completion however (DAMHIKT).

I've probably four times as many ideas at time to complete. I need to make things faster, better, and avoid making the dumb ones.

Re: What are our goals as woodworkers?

Patrick Gibbons

Jack, you always put out a good read. And that chair is wonderful. Arta longa vita breva est. hopefully my Latin is correct but if not; time is short, build more chairs.

The Curtis Buchannan definition of "professional"

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

Curtis defines professional as doing something enough times that the result becomes predictable. That is to say, there is no longer any question that the stretcher will be turned precisely without "catches" from the skew he uses, as an example. Of that the final proportions will turn out right, etc. Seems to be a good working definition.

In the case of furniture it doesn't need to mean building the same chest of drawers 5 times to get it right. The unit operations to build a chest of drawers can be essentially the same for a multitude of shapes and sizes. Once one can prepare the lumber, glue parts, fit pats, make typical furniture joinery, etc. one can build "professional" furniture in a variety of forms as the need an inclination arises.

To make furniture

Bill Tindall, E.Tn.

I am probably motivated by some combination of frugality and self sufficiency transitioning to legacy. I have made all the furniture we have ever needed. It began simple and has grown more complex and refined. We have everything we need so now I am making stuff for daughters and granddaughters. They are delighted to get furniture of a higher quality than they could afford, designed to their specifications.

I am not wedded to one style or one technique. I would find duplication of something boring. Ideally each new piece requires me to learn some new skill, but this is not always the case.

Re: The Curtis Buchannan definition of "profession

David weaver

I agree with the definition. To me, it's being able to do something of good design sense, repeat it as many times as needed, and to be able to do it at a good pace displaying good skill.

I am closer to that with bench planes than I have been anything else, but mostly due to desire and the fact that building planes is enjoyable enough to do it more than one time.

Re: The Curtis Buchannan definition of "profession

Warren in Lancaster, PA

I don't agree with the definition. I have grown tomatoes reliably for 40 years. I get complements, I have occasionally sold some, and have given away to people who would have gladly paid. My neighbor grows tomatoes, sometimes 20,000 dollars in a month. He knows the market, knows where to sell, what people want to buy, he extends the season at both ends. He does this for his sustenance. Pleasing customers is a lot different than doing high quality work at a leisurely pace.

On the other hand, as professionals, we sometimes do things that are not so reliable. We sometimes need to take on jobs that we have never done before, where the outcome is not assured, where the reward is much more or much less than hoped. Again, interaction with the market (dealing with paying customers or a paying boss) is a big part of professional life. A surgeon is sometimes called upon to do some risky operation where the result is in doubt. This does not make him an amateur.

Re: passions !!

Darren Brewster

Isn't it just a case of forums like this being about helping your peers, and someone who has mastered a craft doesn't really need help? They are well equipped to solve the problems they come across themselves, and have well established tastes and preferences? George doesn't post asking for help, he posts giving the advice of a master. It just seems natural to outgrow message boards to me. Some of the greats stick around to help others, and I for one am eternally grateful they do.

Well, that was more rambling than I intended, but I have a three year old climbing on my head, so it is the best I can do!

Re: What are our goals as woodworkers?

Clint Searl

My goal has always been no more or less than being pleased with something I've made from a design imagined or plagiarized. Not interested in process or skills development. It's the product that counts.

Re: Yeah well - the pro thing

TomD

I think this particular year is going to break down into repairing a lot of sewing machines, finishing some projects on wood, doing more sewing than wood, finishing a lot of my boats. Designing a lot of boats.

As far as the pro thing, that is a really difficult question. I have done some pro work, I think a lot of my work is pro or better. I figured over 35-50 years you could end up as Klausz said "a pretty good beginner". I also figured that you could end up a pretty good beginner in a lot of things. If an apprenticeship takes 7 years or less, and most of it is pay back to the master, and many crafts share similar base skills like sharpening (welding, sewing, knife making, woodworking, metal working, cooking, etc...) You don't need to relearn that stuff with every skill. I learned eye work from shooting, and didn't need to relearn it for woodworking. I learned layout, for stained glass, and making model planes, etc... Didn't need to relearn it for boatbuilding, or cabinets, etc... Then today the resources are so much better.

Just the other day, one my most respected mentors wrote an article for wooden boat where he mentioned he first got into epoxy and wood around 77. Of course he is a pro, and he also used other materials before. It kinda knocked me back. I started with the stuff around then, it is hard to say exactly when, I know there is an article, and I need to dig it out, on paddles, and see when it was written. One of my other Boat building inspirations died of mouse poisoning from a renovation. So the point is that at 55 I am a lot younger than these guys. I started about the same time, sooner or later I will be the longest person in the field, ish.

But the pro thing is odd, I read one article in Woodwork by a guy who was self taught and seemed to have attracted some respect from pros, and I had seen a bit of that also. But I read a book on Japanese house building that really hits hard on the idea you will never be anything unless you really walked the same path as the others. And I guess I buy that now.

I think the external influences are worthless. I am really good at what I do, but it is being an amateur. Professional work is all about what other people think. I have no time for that. I have stuff to make, and it isn't going to get done by following anyone else's path but my own. My main motivation has always been to make stuff I can't get any other way. To be a pro is to make stuff to an external standard, that just doesn't work. It used to be common to at least espouse marching to one's own drummer, but today it is hard to do anything without it being a brand. Even stuff like going for a walk, has be extreme or posted on youtube before you can find a way to relate to other people about it. Participate in the New York marathon if you want to chat to people, just going for a walk on your own property isn't branded enough.

There is a saying in fishing that beginners try to catch any fish, then a lot of fish, then the biggest fish, then the hardest fish, then maybe they just gaze at the river. There is probably some parallel to that in woodwork were one works through various predictable steps, the pro thing is somewhat in the middle there.

Re: Krenov

TomD

"he says that overall the best woodworking being done today is by advanced hobbyist woodworkers, simply because we’re willing to put in the time to do a good job."

Krenov said that also, that was basically the basis of some of his books. But it is just one aspect. Being a woodworker is about design also. Guys who just have a lot of time on their hands and repro philly stuff, are not really the best in the field. Nor are guys who are slow. Etc... I think that idea has a place, but it isn't the final word. And FK who I haven't met, none the less seems to be one kind of guy also. You can break down where his strengths and experiences lead him. A very good place, of course, but woodworking is huge.

Re: Fear is what motivates me

TomD

CJ, I still have that. At some point a switch just flipped, and within reason everything I try turns out. One finally reaches that point where it is all routine. I still have that fear though, and still put stuff off, and still stop projects when something goes wrong. I get a lot of stuff done, but those feelings are still there.

I once read this book about hunting that said there are four psychologies, roughly. Dominators, competitors, harvesters, and gaia types. I forget what he called them. This isn't a right or wrong thing. A harvester might be Bill where the main motivation is getitng furniture, but he doesn't make easy pieces, so that is a competitor/challenge type.

I am sure these kind of breakdowns are present in many activities. I do stuff for the challenge, if one can get killed all the better. IF everything weren't illegal up here I would build part 101 wooden ultralites, and teach myself to fly them, probably my own designs. That is sorta my boating story.

It isn't always the case that the motivation actually suits one perfectly. Chouinard is obviously driven by challenge, but he did early ascents in Yosemite, and has a multi billion dollar company. How hard was it really for him?

Re: Hard to know what it means...

TomD

"Curtis defines professional as doing something enough times that the result becomes predictable. That is to say, there is no longer any question that the stretcher will be turned precisely without "catches" from the skew he uses, as an example. Of that the final proportions will turn out right, etc. Seems to be a good working definition."

I would call that bare competence. I don't get catches from using a skue, not after the first few months, though I am rusty at this point. That is like saying being a pro skier is about not falling down on the bunny hill.

My dad was a big believer in a professional being a person working in a profession where the standards were set by an organization that was run by the people the org governed. So he was a Uni Pro, and they determined who got tenure, or a degree, etc... The term now just means someone who cashes a check, or maybe does nails for a living out of their house. So Curtis' opinion is as good as anyone's

"In the case of furniture it doesn't need to mean building the same chest of drawers 5 times to get it right. The unit operations to build a chest of drawers can be essentially the same for a multitude of shapes and sizes. Once one can prepare the lumber, glue parts, fit pats, make typical furniture joinery, etc. one can build "professional" furniture in a variety of forms as the need an inclination arises."

I think that is more about production than professionalism, which is tough to define, anyway. I don't see any evidence that top quality work can be produced off of interchangeable subset of skills alone. I often learn a lot building something twice both in design and efficiency. I think if you look at say Maloof, there is zero evidence he got where he got by having no catch with the skew level skills that were just applied to sub assemblies and then those were assembled and put in various orientations. He spent decades evolving his designs and I would have little interest (other than financial or historic) in having his earlier pieces in my house. Not all his later stuff was great, and to the extent it wasn't it was because he couldn't find a way of doing for rectilinear work what he did for his chairs. A sort of unintended further meaning to the idea that life is short but art is long.

Re: Pro doesn't mean good.

TomD

It might make him an amateur in that surgical procedure. Professional does not mean good, by the way. I am very positive about teachers (not one), my kids have benefited enormously. Teaching is a profession in almost every sense of the word. You can be a professional teacher and not very good at it. That is just a fact. In the best case you might be devoted, qualified, a leader in your community of teachers, etc... But maybe it really shouldn't have been your thing. You are still a professional.

Most modern tomatoes have little flavour (probably reflects poor nutrient count), may be a little bad for you, and often have poor nutrition, and may harbour poisons. This is all part of being a professional tomato grower.

Professions are also a lot about turf. The old guild systems died, so new one's were set up to ensure value and competence existed, in turn competition was excluded. I have been involved in professional standard setting exercises, they flourished in my industry when protectionism was the main objective.