A sad day

Re: A sad day

Thomas Skaggs, Foothills of Mount Level

That is sad news. But when the going gets tough, the tough go straight to Japan! Mr. Iida always takes good care of me.

T.

Re: A sad day

david weaver

I don't buy a lot of stuff from woodcraft, I do buy some and ever interaction I've had with their corporate group has been straightforward (i.e., the stuff they told, they came through on, and they were quick to respond).

Years ago, I had some chisels I couldn't identify. I was a JWW customer at the time. I sent them a picture of the chisels and asked if they could identify them. They couldn't be bothered to respond.

Also, I think you have it backwards when you're referring to Lie Nielsen and Woodcraft. My understanding was that Woodcraft wanted more planes, and they wanted to be able to make sure they could stock them and LN said no. At the time, LN was going to take more of their sales in house to try to promote sales through their store instead of through retailers. I don't know what the details were of the woodriver planes (and I don't own any), but I seriously doubt that woodcraft got the WR planes up and running and then told LN to take a hike.

I have always found both woodcraft and JWWs prices to be equally strong (as in you'll have trouble finding someone with higher prices). I don't know what the reason was behind JWW's pricing strategy, but I would assume WC's has a lot to do with trying to keep franchise stores open. The only other place I could compare would be rockler, who also has really strong (high) prices on everything, except as far as I can tell, rockler carries almost nothing useful to hand tool woodworkers now - at least in their stores, one is literally down the street from me and I have trouble finding much of anything to take home in it.

At any rate, JWW has always chosen to give us what is in my opinion a less than authentic view of japanese tools, and quite often the straight up specs are replaced by "hammered in a tin hut and performs like magic beans".

I don't know who supplied JWW, but I would assume harima enterprises supplies woodcraft (just because when I read their distributor claims, they said they supply 40 or something retailers in the US), and between the two, they'll have access to plenty of japanese stuff.

I personally had hoped Stu's store would grow faster, because it is to us what JWW should have been. Straight forward dirt on what's available in japan. As in, tell us about it without ambiguity, bring us the new stuff at a decent price and put it in a box and get it here. It's growing though (stu's store) and I'm sure it'll keep growing as the customer base (the razor folks and the knife folks have found stu, too) increases.

The retail places with a long lineage (JWW, woodcraft, rockler, etc..) all have no choice but to increase the volume of imported stuff, or they will go out of business. Despite what all of us say, there isn't enough of us who will buy the premium priced stuff on a regular basis for them to make a go of it.

A loss even deeper.....

Bill Tindall

It was easy to get a wholesale account with Japan Woodworkers. I doubt it will be an option in the future.

Personally I avoid Woodcraft as much as I can. One only has to see how they turn a magazine into an infomercial, as well as Rough Cut, to see their evil ways. I regard them as the Subway of woodworking.

But fortunately we have an alternative.

Re: A sad day

TomD

I think that is the key. They sold a lot of useful stuff to bridge us from the 70s to the internet age. And there are a few other suppliers out there, at least last I heard, for those who want to deal with a domestic source.

The other major issue is, that as far as I was concerned, and with the style of woodworking of the late 70 and early 80s, Japanese tools were pretty much the only source. They are still the best chisels by a long shot. Back then Japanese plane blades were the only quality choice in new tools, and they were the only saws that cut at all. It isn't that many years ago I wrote Leonard Lee, and expressed my gratitude for their offerings, but pointed out they didn't offer one serious chisel, saw, or plane of any brand or type (I think they always had the 10 set of Japanese chisels, for what that was worth. He said they were on it already, and today, one can buy serious planes, chisels and saws from LV of their own manufacture, and buy many, many other makers also.

Back in the day, using Japanese tools was not an affectation or a tourist activity, they were nearly the only show in town. But today, it kinda is. There are many other ways to skin the cat. There are few people using the tools in the West, who do so because they are necessary to the quality and style of work they produce. But with Western tools that is the case. You can't produce some of our traditional work without traditional tools, and there is more interest in that kind of thing that at any other time I remember.

The LieNielsen situation

Bill Tindall

Some stores still stock LN stuff, for example in Atlanta, while others do not. LN seems to have the curious arrangement of still selling through a few stores but mostly emphasizing direct sales.

At one time I could buy LN sort of wholesale (a bit more than 30% off list) through Japan Woodworker. I have first hand experience that LN was not happy with that arrangement and stopped Japan Woodworker from reselling LN stuff wholesale.

Re: A sad day

TomD

Interesting take. Myself, I always found JWW pretty decent on pricing, and in particular they seemed unaffected by the incredibly steep decline in the dollar (which over time has seemed unaffected by stuff like Japan and Europe going virtually bankrupt. How scary is it that the euro still buys 30% more dollar at this point?) I wondered whether they had a warehouse full of several million of the product, and had been able to weather the storm.

I never visited their store, but they did a great job with their print catalog, and they advertised heavily. While personally I would prefer to go direct, and pay less, one should not underestimate the value that a steady presence like that provides, while the other majors like LV GW, MM, were either going bankrupt or dropping Japanese tools. All that costs something.

Also, if you strip away the magic beans part, you are basically left with nothing. Japanese tools are way better in many respects, even for punters. But I don't see the uptick for modern users. And it isn't because the Japanese tools are revealed as being worse, as some hostiles would like it to be. What we get, keeps getting better, it is the combination of woodworkers that are decidedly better, but still pretty mediocre, with a universe of tools that are far better. Japanese tools do have magical properties if you do the comparison in 1979. But today, the domestic tools are more than good enough, far more, than the skill level of the people using them, for the tasks they want to use them for. So without some level of magic beans, and considering the loss of prestige in Japan in general, the trade should probably go down, except for the fact that woodworking as a whole is getting more popular.

Who knows what alternatives live in heart of man ?

roger lance

The Shadow do.....faster than a speeding bullet....more powerful than a locomotive....able to heap tall buildings in a single bound....look, up in the sky....is it a bird??.....is it a plane??.....no, its Rob Lee !!!

Re: The LieNielsen situation

david weaver

We had a local gray market seller here, too. I think the guy might be selling other stuff now, but he was getting his stuff through JWW also. I'd imagine there were a lot of people getting their stuff through JWW.

I remember at the time the whole LN contraction was going on, one of the issues that they were supposedly not happy with was gray market selling.

But what's interesting is that despite that, JWW remained one of their suppliers, and I don't know if JWW was the biggest gray market seller, but they sure were doing a lot of it. What'll be interesting to see is whether or not JWW can continue to sell LN planes (out of their catalog, they have always been full retail, though).

My understanding with the individual stores is that it's an issue of franchise owners having a relationship with LN, and not Woodcraft itself.

When the dust settled, that was the end of ever getting an LN plane with even a small slice of discount, presume LN doesn't want anything that would discourage people from going to their web store to buy. I haven't bought a new LN plane since, it just rubs me the wrong way.

Re: A loss even deeper.....

david weaver

I don't see a great difference between the way WC operates and the way JWW operated. Both had those goofy knock-off looking chinese copies of LV products, and IIRC, JWW's comment was something along the lines of they'd sell it if it was good for their business (which I suppose is true for any business, but pretty blunt). Someone can correct me if I am not remembering that correctly.

I can't watch Rough cut promos or any of that stuff, though, it's too much product placement in the little bits I saw. Maybe i wasn't being fair and should've seen more, who knows.

Our local WC store when we had one was in a bad location, and the internet probably just killed it, anyway.

I like the way LV runs their company, but I don't think most woodworking retailers would survive the way they do, especially if they had franchise stores, and WC isn't a manufacturer. Despite feeling like most of the catalog retailers are hard on the educated consumers, I don't know how else someone like them or like Rockler will stay in business when they have all of these B&M stores.

What's so bad about subway?

Not a good set up for a franchise...

John in NM

Even when business was far better, 10+ years ago, owning one of those franchises struck me as a bad idea. Why would one pay through the nose to open a retail franchise whose primary supplier is in direct mail order competition with the retail businesses? I almost took a job managing one in 2001, glad I took the telescope job instead

I actually think LN's policy is a good one. Keeps them from competing with any of their re-sellers. I do roughly the same thing in my own limited way, and would probably dump any re-seller who followed an un-sustainable pricing scheme to kill the competition. In a niche market, its just a bad idea.

Re: Not a good set up for a franchise...

Thomas Skaggs, Foothills of Mount Level

When I was a hobbyist I went to Woodcraft now and again. Now that I have a business I never go there. I can't afford those prices in my overhead. Even more irritating is that Woodcraft does not offer professional discounts. Not smart INHO.

T.

Re: Not a good set up for a franchise...

david weaver

i agree...it's tough to be in any retail, let alone a specialty retailer selling a lot of things that can be easily shipped.

as far as ln goes, i don't think WC had anything to do with gray market selling, they were happily rolling along selling at full retail until the relationship went south. and it certainly makes sense looking retrospectively that ln would snatch control of how an end user would get a plane. i think looking prospectively from the beginning, though, WC and others did a lot to get the ln brand in peoples hands long before ln had the ability to do that themselves.

it appears that WC got hosed in the deal, at least to me. just by their size and reach, they benefited ln a lot. it was destined to go sour if the quantity WC wanted in supply was an issue, though, as LN has made it clear they don't want to get big fast, so in the end it matters little.

The old Garrett Wade company

John in NM

They were the original vendor for LN as I recall and had vastly more to do with LN's early success than other mail order vendors. By the time WoodCraft started carrying LN products, you could also buy them from Highland, JWW and many others. While I don't know the details, I would guess that the introduction of the Chinese knockoffs had more to do with LN moving on than the un-willingness to discount.

The supplier dictates the terms of sale when they are comfortable with declining the sale rather than compromise on their terms, and LN knows quite well that allowing one retailer to undercut their others will damage their business in the long term, so they decline to allow it.

That LN is still around, supplying luxury items in a very small market is evidence to me that they know precisely what they are about -- they could easily have gone the way of Shepherd Tools instead.

Re: The old Garrett Wade company

TomD

Just out of interest, LV was an early LN seller. I always wondered whether a few of their earlier planes from the pre-black paint stage were made by LN. In particular the bronze one.

Re: Not a good set up for a franchise...

Ray

I hope Woodcraft trains their sales staff on the new products and customer service basics. The last time I was in one of their stores, I was looking at both Western and Japanese saws. When a salesperson asked me if he could help, I stated that I wanted to know some information on the saws that they carried.

The sales person said that he didn't know anything about saws and that I would have to talk to Joe. The sales person left- I assumed he was planning on bringing Joe to the saw area. You guessed it, he never returned. When I approached the main desk and asked for Joe, I was told he was not working today. I guess I need to call ahead next time and ask if Joe is working. I hope this was an isolated incident. I will probably never know...

Here is my take on my situation. I just order $300 worth of tools from LV-two carcass saws plus a bunch of small stuff. I saved $20.00 right off the bat on the deal LV offers for buying 2 or their saws. 20 out of 21 items were in stock. I didn't have to pay tax and approximately $10.00 for gas.

Shipping came to approximately $13. In addition, I won't have to spend over an hour on the freeway or go back a second time to pick up what the store doesn't stock.

Why pay a premium for the privilege of being treated badly? I would gladly pay the premium if helped pay for knowledgeable/helpful sales people and a larger inventory. That is why I stopped to shop at their store.

Re: The old Garrett Wade company

david weaver

I couldn't walk into garrett wade, nor could I walk into highland hardware.

I know garrett wade carried the original block plane.

But of all of those, woodcraft was the only place I could walk into, and in fact the only place I bought an LN plane from.

Woodcraft keeps coming up with comments about low price selling, but until LN started selling planes in the markets where WC already was, I never can recall any material discount of LN planes.

I *do* remember regularly getting a discount at C-studio, and I also know a retailer here who got the planes gray market through JWW. But those are the places that still do carry LN planes. They're just no longer allowed to discount them.

It is what it is, but I have the feeling that the demands for quantity and delivery are what LN couldn't handle. As clarence once told me when I asked him if they'd ever get jointers in, "they like to work at their own speed there".

Whatever the issue, after that ugly exchange, I don't buy much from either, but I have to admit I've bought more from WC, just because of variety and periodic sales. And I haven't bought a new plane from LN since then, but I have bought plenty of LV stuff.

Of everything out there, the only one that I'd really get down about if they went the way of the dodo bird would be LV.

Re: The old Garrett Wade company

Warren in Lancaster, PA

I can remember when Lee Valley, Woodcraft, and Garrett Wade all carried LN planes. I looked in old catalogs and found that Garrett Wade had the lowest price , which surprised me. Thomas Lie Nielsen worked for GW back when they carried Ken Wisner's planes and he quit when he bought the company from Wisner.

It is almost 40 years ago when I first saw a Woodcraft catalog. In those days they carried hand tools exclusively: lots of chisels, saws, wooden planes, Arkansas stones, Belgian stones, etc. Probably more hand saws in the 12 page catalog than the later 100 page version.

Re: A sad day

Patrick Gibbons

My take on WC is a bit different. Here in Houston it was a place where I could get decent hinges and hardware, shellac and finishes, pen-making supplies, nice woodworking books, carving supplies and all of these quickly when I needed them. Now often the hardware is not there anymore nor are the finishes that I want. Books are hit and miss and I don't need pen-making and carving supplies like I use to. I bought a Jet mini lathe from them a number of years ago and not much else since. Hardware and shellac I get online. Last Saturday I went to the Borg to look at hinges. Of course I came home empty-handed. Turns out I had some extras in the shop. I didn't even think about WC. Makes me realize they've lost me as a customer because I don't think of them as an option like I use to. Like someone else said, it's more convenient to order online and actually cheaper with the cost of my time and gas.

Re: It was like that here...

david weaver

.. though the couple of times I was in there, I got to know who was more thorough about knowing the tools and being able to explain them.

The economic proposition was always there, though. I feel like (and the same about rockler) the stores are set up to sell to people just getting into the hobby, and at fairly low volume and high margins.

Even corporate WC was cheaper than going to the store because of the mileage on the car. They often had (maybe they still do) free shipping on fairly low order totals, so what sense does it make to drive 20 miles to the WC store and burn through what is essentially $20 worth of car wear and tear and gas when you could just order online, and still be ahead on both time and money.

People in our rockler store are really responsive, and the manager is fantastic, but even to have a professional account and save 10% still leaves you with a high price. They do get lumber on pallets from time to time, and at a decent price, but the quality is hit or miss, and the lumber that is nice quality that's in the wall racks is priced with delivery to the moon included in the cost, I think.

It goes back to what you need to sell to stay in business these days, I guess. You can have some of the high cost stuff in the store, but you have to sell the plastic trinkets and imported tools in high volume to actually pay the bills.

Product Knowledge

Thomas Skaggs, Foothills of Mount Level

The Woodcraft I used to go to was a large one. I was astounded by how little the employees knew about the products. In fact, twice I found myself answering other customer's questions when the staff were baffled. Sheeeez.

T.

Changes

Jim in River Oaks, Ont.

Sometimes you have to look at what the cause and effect factors really are about. When a company as respected as this goes into acquisition by a larger one (WC) you need to look at the business case for each. Many here are expressing focus on emotional responses to change, I feel that too. The truth is that the $ won out, or the lack of $ in one case. It's hard to know if WC is actually going to use the good name of it's new purchase to build upon a demographic that it has not been able to satisfy for eons or to actually drive it into a portion of WC's business model they think they need to have market share. Time will tell, perhaps time and feed back will give many the answer they want.

Money talks, many here speak of that, if a business truly supported what you wanted but cost you more to patronage them, would you really support them or buy the same or close to the same else where? Think about your answer and ask that question of your self again... would you.

Take care,

Jim

LV - LN

Jim in River Oaks, Ont.

In the late 90's I had a conversation Leonard Lee about just that, the answer was no, LV makes it's own. He said a bit more at that time about building a profile of LV planes that would be 100% Canadian, 14 years later he was true to his word. LN was dropped from LV's catalog back then when I was told LN was "slow" on replenishing orders...

Take care,

Jim

Re: The old Garrett Wade company

Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA

Back then, Woodcraft was the major source in the U.S. for high grade Western-style tools, mostly made in Great Britain and Europe. Since the American firms were stepping away from quality hand tools, it was kind of one of the last remaining candles, until the firms like Lie-Nielsen and Lee Valley picked up the torch again.

It was, then, a single operation in Massachusetts, focused on mail order sales (unless you happened to be in Massachusetts, I guess).

I could never afford to buy much of their stuff back then - my major investment at that point was in two sons - but it was still a sad day when the company was purchased and taken in the direction that has brought it to where it is.

Re: Changes - Very good point

North of the Border

Many woodworkers complain about Harbour Freight and imported goods; but are all of them willing to pay extra for every tool that's out there? Dollar stores and Walmart would have failed if the answer to that question posed to the general public is a yes.

A lot of people (not just woodworkers) fire cheap shots at imported goods (from China, Taiwan and whatnot) and stand on the high moral ground in gesture only. When it comes to opening their wallets, it's a different story. Yes, many of us support quality tool makers like Lee Valley and Lie Nielsen, but hobby woodworkers shouldn't feel guilty if they can't afford them and use competitive products.

One last thing: Many complain about the poor quality of tools imported. The fault lies with the importers, not the overseas manufacturers. They make what the importers order...These Asian countries can make top quality tools if the specifications say so. Look at all the iPhones made in China and computer chips in Taiwan. But are we willing to pay for good quality?