chip breaker/cap iron or not?

Re: Really Huh?

James Watriss

>I think you missed part of my point. Forge welding to a blank with a hole, versus forge welding to a blank without a hole, the process is the same, but the blanks could be cut out via machine with a hole or without with equal ease. It makes more sense to me that the blade manufacturers would have the hole stamped into the blade before the forging took place.

That some people decided to cut holes in existing irons is very possible. People put Ford engines into Chevy trucks, too. But if it was common practice among the blade manufacturer, I doubt they did it by hand, and since they were stamping through the mild steel blank, and not the tool steel bit, I don't think it would have posed anywhere near as much of a problem as it would nowadays if you were trying to stamp through a solid, hardened A2 blank. So again, using a machine to stamp out a hole in a blank, before or after forging the blade, doesn't sound like it would pose too much work for an established manufacturer.

That old Buck brothers plane of mine certianly bears out Larry's explanation of plenty of parts being produced for sale to the plane manufacturers. The cap iron has very nicely made chamfers that look like something you'd see on an infill plane. They're also completely covered up by the wedge, so there's really not a lot of aesthetic purpose to have them there, and I never really figured out why they would bother. But if they were purchased out of a batch of cap irons produced en masse for plane makers to use, it makes a lot more sense now.

Did thedouble iron planes cost more? Certainly. That's brilliant marketing. The hallmark of a successful product design is to come up with somthing that seems more complicated than it actually is. That way you can charge more for it and increase profits without substantially increasing workload. For some reason you seem resistant to that idea, or to the idea that the tools were being made for a profit. I don't know why, or how to explain that concept to you.

And it's an age old sales pitch anyway: "Why does that one cost so much more."

Answer: "Quality."

And people will buy that as an answer without knowing why. There's a sucker born every minute.

But the other point to be made is that I'm talking about larger batches of blanks and parts being made by a machine. If you had a hard time making a screw, or hammering out a cap iron, god bless you for trying. But the joys of machine production techniques is that teh real lion's share of the work goes into the setup. Once the setup is worked out, it's not too much harder to stamp out ten blanks, or a hundred blanks, than it is to stamp out one or two. It's a lot of effort if you're only making one or two, though. But just becuase a hobbyist tried his hand at it once and had a hard time of it, isn't really evidence to me that craftsmen with knowledge and experience would have such a hard time. IS it harder than making a single iron? Probably. Is it that much harder? Probably not.

I think your theory about tin bladed planes is a bit much, but here's the rub: We know that wooden planes were used much more heavily in those days than they are now, because of the lack of industrial surfacing machines and electricity. And we know that after a while, the blades get ground down, the bodies deteriorate, and the planes aren't fit for much more than firewood after being used for so long. We know the single iron planes were made. We also know the double iron planes were made.

Nowadays, it seems like anytime anyone finds an old plane, regardless of how crappy it looks, it makes its way to a flea market or a tool autcion. You seem to be the voice of authority on catalogs, so if you can find a tin bladed plane, I'll buy your theory. But here's my question for you. If the single bladed planes were so unpopular, and every other tired old workhorse seems to have survived the ages, where are the single iron planes now? I don't know about tin bladed planes, but the single iron planes were being made. If they were so unpopular, they wouldn't have seen as much use, and if it was really so much work to put a cap iron on them, there should be piles of them lying around.

???

Todd Hughes

>Not quite sure what you are asking...but will give it a shot!

I think LN planes are nice high quality planes that according to most ever user I ever heard perform great....Have also had many people tell me that thier vintage Stanleys perform just as well esp. with a thicker iron. Personaly my interests lay instead of with repos more with original vintage tools which I think are better finished then these planes....or maybe I should say are more tradtionaly finished....Just me now

Of course the market today that these LN planes are aimed at is much different then what these wooden planes or even the Stanley Bedrocks was. While I am sure some professional woodworkers use LN planes I also think if the company depended on them to buy thier tools they would soon be out of bussiness. Today the market is for hobbiest who are willing to pay more for a LN then say a vintage Stanley.

... I think various reasons come into place here more then just that they are willing to pay more for a "better" performing plane things like a perceived lack of old planes that are in excellent condition, not wanting to take the time to look for them, fear of the work it would take to "tune" a vintage plane up,want a plane ready to go out of the box, or just the desire to own a new made tool. When that wood worker back in 1800 was willing to pay more for a new double iron plane over a new single iron plane i don't think any of these were the reason ....Todd

Question and correction.

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>My question is where did this 'tin' blade come from? Elemental tin (Sn) can not hold much of an edge. Is this a typo and was it suppose to be 'thin'?

The correction is to the materials old plane blades, both doubles and singles were made. The body of the plane iron is made of wrought iron, not mild steel. Wrought iron is made by taking iron and folding it over and forge welding it together. This is repeated several times. With each heating and forge welding impurities of slag are introduced into the iron matrix. This forms the distinctive 'wood grain' of wrought iron. It also accounts for the fact the wrought iron only rusts to the slag layer then stops as the slag is already oxidized.

The working part of the 'iron' is a thin slip of 'cast steel' forge welded to the wrought iron. I have talked to a few blacksmiths who have forge welded blades, using the real stuff; wrought iron and cast steel. I have watched them go through the process. The forge welding to make laminated cutters of any type and especially plane blades with holes, needs to be done first before any other work is attempted.

Even manufactories using the latest technology during the early to middle nineteenth centuries would follow the same process, the steel has to be welded on the iron before anything else happens, such as punching a hole and slot. Too much distortion would occur and if you examine old holes you will see what I mean.

Stephen

Re: Really Huh?

Todd Hughes

>" I think you missed part of my point. Forge welding to a blank with a hole, versus forge welding to a blank without a hole, the process is the same, but the blanks could be cut out via machine with a hole or without with equal ease. It makes more sense to me that the blade manufacturers would have the hole stamped into the blade before the forging took place.....

Did the double iron planes cost more? Certainly. That's brilliant marketing. The hallmark of a successful product design is to come up with somthing that seems more complicated than it actually is. That way you can charge more for it and increase profits without substantially increasing workload.... If they were so unpopular, they wouldn't have seen as much use, and if it was really so much work to put a cap iron on them, there should be piles of them lying around...."

First most of these irons originaly were made in large forges using trip hammers but still they were made by hand in that a man took them out of the forge and welded them under the hammer whether hand or trip. I can tell you straight you would not be able to forge weld a steel bit unto a blank which was already slotted as the slot would be deformed when the two pieces were hammered together...No matter if hand hammered or esp. so if done under a trip hammer. To think other wise just illustrates a lack of knowledge as to how forged blades would be made.

I do agree with you about the marketing hype and protection of interests...and probaly it was done back then as much as it seems to be done today [grin].

...I do think it is asking a bit to much to say millions of wood workers buying double iron planes for hundereds of years was because of some kind of conspiracy amoung plane makers to sell them less effective planes for a higher price...esp. since the plane makers continued to sell the single iron planes that according to you were better at a cheaper price and that anyone could buy if they wanted.

I don't think anyone bought these cheaper to buy single iron planes and then didn't use them because they were "unpopular" , I imagine they got used just as much by thier owners as the owners of the more expensive double planes did theres. They were unpopular because they did not get sold in the first place as much as the double planes did,

.. While not common I have seen older single iron planes that have been retro fitted with double irons though I would imagine in most cases they would not have been bought new with the ideal of doing this but rather was just a case of an owner wanting to upgrade or using up the original blade.....Todd

Re: cap iron use- please help

Warren in Lancaster, Pa

>Adam, the double iron is a sophisticated instrument. For things to work well everything has to be just so. There is no shame in having trouble with it. If the idea of learning to use hot hide glue turns you off, the double iron is not for you. It takes a fair amount of practice to get a good feel for it. I can say that the benefits of learning are well worth the effort and I would not want to be without it.

I am not the best person for troubleshooting, especially without having the plane in my hand. I have only ever maintained five bench planes: a fore plane, a trying plane, a jointer and two smoothers. All were put into service between 1973 and 1983, so its been a long time since I was dealing with cranky planes. Often I read about some tuning operation on this forum that I had long forgotten about.

I often wonder if others just buy another plane when they have problems, rather than taking the trouble to observe and reason and experiment until the problem is solved.

sawing planes in half

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I don't think you need to saw it in half, just cut off one cheek or the other.

Pam

that could work- thanks!

Adam Cherubini

>

46 degrees is the steepest

Brad in Ottawa

>Never handled a Japanese plane I need to ask: is there something special about 46 degrees? Is it uncommon to have a Japanes plane bedded at an angle greater than 46? Is a 46 degree Japanes plane on par with a Western plane at 50 or 55?

Thanks!

Re: 46 degrees is the steepest

wilbur

>Actually, that's something that I hadn't thought about until you raised the question, Brad. To my understanding, the plane bed angle is the angle that the slanted part of the dai makes with the base of the plane.

One of the big differences between Japanese plane blades and western plane blades is that the Japanese plane blade is actually slightly tapered. So, although the plane bed angle may be, say, 46 degrees, the angle that the blade itself makes, measured off of the top of the blade, is probably a few degrees steeper.

I'm at work, so I can't make any measurements right now, but I bet Wiley or Pam have this information handy.

Re: 46 degrees is the steepest

Wiley Horne

>Hi Brad,

No, there's nothing magic about any particular angle. That dai I mentioned was a custom dai, and was bedded at about 45, so that the resultant attack angle (allowing for the blade taper that Wilbur spoke of) was about 46 or 46-1/2.

Generally speaking, the commercially available Japanese planes are frequently bedded at lower angles, like 40 or 42 degrees. For example, if you order a Japanese plane from Hida Tool, it will likely be in these low angles. Hiraide America (www.japanesetools.com) has in the past offered Japanese planes at approx. 42 and 48 degrees, 48 degrees being the highest angle I have seen offered in the US.

You asked about the comparability of bedding angles in Japanese and western planes. I don't know--there are lots of variables. There are variables in the planes, the plane setup and tuning, and in the users. My limited personal observation is this: The skill of the user is an incalculable thing. The standard wisdom may say that high-angle planes are needed to plane difficult wood without tearout. By and large, this may be true. But there will be skilled workers out there who will plane that difficult wood with a 43 degree Japanese plane, or a 45 degree Stanley or an old woodie they got someplace--because they are very good and they know their planes very well.

Wiley

Re: 46 degrees is the steepest

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>No, nothing special about 46�. Now here I'd very much like to look on another screen to make sure I'm answering the question (vs misremembering/misreading) and address the next part of the question; but, alas, no, I now have to wipe out this display to see the original message. This is even more important for long posts. Thus, answers will be somewhat less thoughtful and somewhat more incomplete, which I think was avoided by having separate screens, thus my theory that quality follows form and function.

Pam

Re: 46 degrees is the steepest

Dean J in MN

>Yes Pam --

And lack of threading (in guestbook view) is like reading a book in random order. I feel your pain!

-Dean

Thanks

Brad in Ottawa

>I learned something new today! (Not that hard for me though.)

BTW, Wiley glad to hear that despite the origin of the tool, East or West, that operator error/skill is a big factor!

How to look at the post you are responding to

wilbur

>Pam,

One thing you might try when responding to a post is to right-click (or control click, or whatever is appropriate for your computer) on the "Post Response" link, and bring it up in a new window. This opens up a new browser window with the WC post response page, and the original post is still available for you to look at.

Re: How to look at the post you are responding to

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Sure, Wilbur, but that used to happen automatically. On my Powerbook with Firefox it now requires a second hand and a slight wait. Then after posting I have to close the window. Guess how often I'm willing to do that? :)

Pam

Re: 46 degrees is the steepest

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I have no idea what guestbook is like (where have those preferences gone?), but reading without threads would be formidable.

Pam

Oops, my bad, found the prefs.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>