"What bothers me is, he is teaching the younger generation that it is in fact for the purpose of starting a cut. No one can know that to be factual. Will those young boys now think that the only saw that is useable has to have a NIB and reject using other saws without a NIB that could even be a better saw?"
Well this is getting personal.
You were not there and making assumptions that I taught those boys only a useful saw has a nib. The cranked blade bow saw doesn't have a nib. They learned how to use that and they even asked what if a saw doesn't have a nib? I told them how to make the starting cut using the back of the saw and by using a striking knife and that a marking gauge will score a good starting line. I also told them that some folks thought it was just for decoration.
I am certainly going to teach anyone to use a saw backwards to start a cut. That technique is not mentioned in any references I can find, it dulls the blade and it is not intended to be used in that fashion.
You said you have never seen anything written about drawing a handsaw back to start a cut. The picture below is from a 1934 Disston Manual instructing beginners how to use handsaws and other tools.
>I have never seen any written instructions saying to lift a hand saw during the back stroke. And lets not comfuse hacksaws with wood cutting hand saws.
Disston was only the largest saw manufacturer in the world during the turn of the 20th century, what did they know a NIB from a BIB?
You being the "Master" woodworker, I am totally unqualified to argue these fine points with you. However, as I have done all during my working life, I'll continue to employ logic and good common sense when it comes to the use of a simple tool such as a hand saw.
I don't have any 19th century handbooks, and most of my early-20th-century books are upstairs, hard to reach. Herewith what I found in the bookcase today.
Picture from "The Complete Woodworking Handbook," Jeannette T. Adams and Emanuele Stieri, copyright 1960. See bottom of left page, continuing onto right page.
>[The nib] "...added a lot of labor to the making of the saw and would seem very impractical to add manufacturing cost merely to decorate the end of a saw blade."
But, then, how would you explain the "sheaf of wheat" carving, and other carving, on traditional saw handles, not to mention the completely unnecessary other carving that causes (at least some of) us to drool upon sighting them in the rust pile at garage sales? Or all the other unnecessary filigree that exists? Not to mention the outrageous, though completely unnecessary, decorations on many modern power tools?
Manufacturers were then, as they are now, operating within a culture. If the culture expected that saws came with some classy looking decorative elements, manufacturers would comply if they wanted to stay in business. Imagine trying to market a Stanley toolbox saw in the 19th century.
>On rip sawing.....Pages 47-48, w/illus. on p. 48,
"...The cut is commenced by resting the saw near its heel upon the line, with the thumb of the left hand lying by the side of the blade as a guide, then draw the saw backwards (holding it at an angle of about 45 deg.) for about a foot. This makes a slight kerf at the end of the board. Next push the saw forward the same distance. Repeat the strokes, gradually lengthening them until the full length of the blade is employed. For the first few strokes only sufficient force to send the saw forward should be used, otherwise it will 'kick' and jump the cut, to the detriment of the left hand of the operator if he is not alert..."
Geo. Ellis goes on in detail about ripping. When he gets to cross-cutting, he says to start the cut the same as in ripping.
Wiley ... who notes that with Japanese saws, one does not push forward to start the cut.
Some good "points" you make regarding other decorative aspects of some of the older tools. Old cast iron levels for example. The makers of tools did what they felt people expected during their time even though it cost more to manufacture. It must have been all about marketing in those days just like it is today.
Thanks for posting the information about how to start a saw cut. I was almost ready to change from what I've been doing most of my hand sawing life.
>People, you have done good research and some modern stuff is appearing to support the pull to start school of sawing.
However, after reading those examples, I think I see a thread within them that leads to the Disston catalogue/manual. They all appear to be versions of what was printed earlier. It would be easy to check their bibliographies to see what entries there are and if any of them are quoting any other of them.
I do not own these publications to do that research. If the original source is Disston, that would be of interest.
The first edition of 'Modern Practical Joinery', by Geo. Ellis, was published in 1902, and in his preface, Mr. Ellis says that he has been practicing his profession for more than 25 years.
Mr. Ellis is English. He says that,
"The methods of construction described are those generally adopted by skilful workmen, and are such as are in constant use in the best London workshops at the present time."
Basically, he is citing his own experience and trade practice, as it existed in late-19th century London. I would be amazed if those folks were not following their own guild practices of long standing, not to mention using Spear & Jackson saws, rather than Disstons.
_______
Stephen, experts disagree. Constantly. It seems likely that references could be found to the contrary, and if I come across any, I will bring them to the forum as well. Furthermore, Mr. Ellis' book is a teaching text, and it may be that if someone had followed him around a hundred and some odd years ago, they might have found that his personal practice as an expert joiner skipped some of the steps that he taught--who knows?
In short, there's no reason not to hold the opinion that you hold, but there is no denying that there are standard references to the contrary, Henry Disston and others.
>This 19th century English saw has an interesting variation on the nib for starting a cut. The handle if original may give some idea as to the age of the saw (link to handle picture at bottom of message). The other saws in the chest are mid-19th century.
Notice that the picture shows the sawyer using the teeth at the toe of the blade in the area where the rest of the sawing is not taking place. I don't use that part of the blade for starting, I use an area a little farther up the blade, it feels more natural.
Today I read on another forum about a guy who recently bought a saw with a NIB. He was wondering what it was for. He guessed that perhaps it was meant as a gauge so that the sawyer can easily see how far back he is pulling the saw without pulling back too far and causing the saw to buckle on the down stroke. Now this is the best reason I've heard of yet for the NIB,s existance. The NIB acts as a small pointer and is easy to see.
>Agreed - there's dissent in different texts. I can't put a great deal of stock in either method - so long as the saw cuts, I'm happy...
But for completeness - here's a counterpoint to starting with a backstroke, and a confirmation of lifting the saw on the back stroke from William Noyes book, "Handwork in Wood":
"A crosscut-saw when used to rip a board, works slowly, for there is no chisel action to cut out the fibres between the points, but the cut, tho slow, is smooth. In cutting diagonally across a piece of wood, especially soft wood, a rip-saw cuts faster, but a crosscut, smoother. In ripping a board, allowance should always be made for planing to the line afterward. In starting a cut with the rip-saw, the weight of the saw should be borne by the right hand so that the teeth may [page 65] pass over the edge of the wood as lightly as possible. The left thumb acts as a guide. If the saw be handled thus, and the angle with the board be quite acute, it is not necessary to start with a back stroke. When the kerf is well started, the whole weight of the saw may be applied. An easy light stroke is better than a furious one. The line should be followed carefully, but if the saw runs from the line it may be brought back by taking short strokes near the point of the saw and twisting the blade slightly in the desired direction. If the saw binds and buckles because of the springing together of the wood, the kerf may be wedged open with a screwdriver or a bit of waste wood. A drop of oil rubbed across each side of the saw will make it work more easily."
>Stephen, I've always thought it quite normal to start a cut when using western style saws with a back stroke or two, no matter what type of saw is in use nor the direction of cut in the wood. I don't think it's unusual to start the cut with forward motion either, particularly when doing dovetails.
It's the way I was taught when I started my training as a cabinetmaker away back in the mists of time now, and this method was passed down through the generations to me. I teach exactly the same technique to my learners, so I assume it's very common here in the UK. And then there are authors that describe this back cutting thing to start a kerf. Just to add to the list of authors already mentioned, Ernest Joyce in The Technique of Furniture Making describes it too.
I'm not sure I really buy the idea that it causes unnecessary wear and more frequent and expensive sharpening either. The same could be said of dragging a plane backwards after each forward stroke. Perhaps I should pick up the plane after each stroke, not drag it as I almost always do. I normally drag planes backwards because it generally seems to make planing quicker and less tiring, although there's nothing scientific about my analysis.
If there is additional wear that causes me to sharpen the plane a minute or two earlier the question I suppose is, "Which of those two methods of planing will get me results fastest when factoring in the sharpening time and frequency of sharpening required to maintain optimum performance?" The same question could be asked of back drawing saw blades to cut to a line. In my case it looks like I prefer to perhaps sharpen just a little more frequently, whether it's saws or planes. Slainte.
>Well thank you all. For years I've wondered how a silly little nib helps start a cut. I've envisioned you all sharpening the nib, turning the saw upside down and cutting the starter. Glad to hear that's not how it's done. :)
I have filed a number of large tooth rip saws for people where I have filed smaller rip teeth, 10PPI on the back edge of the blade exactly as is shown in your picture. It's not a feature that is always used but is there when the sawyer feels a need for it. The smaller teeth are only used to saw a depth of about 3/8 to 1/2 inch. It works exceptionally well and makes one wonder why it was done by the major saw makers instead of the NIB.
>"I have never seen any written instructions saying to lift a hand saw during the back stroke. And lets not comfuse hacksaws with wood cutting hand saws."
I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure Popular Woodowrking or Woodworking Magazine had this tip in the past year or two. Might have been Chris Schwarz....
>Had people tell me they are a "Sight" to use so you saw straight...OK
...Used to hold a guard on, most saws with nibs do have handles which have a notch that you could use to tie the back of the guard on. Interesting after looking at many 1000s of handsaws I have only ever seen a couple that had old guards tied on....and they were all Backsaws which of course don't have a nib. If that was what they were for sure didn't get used much
...Used to start a cut? exactly how does a single dull nib tooth start a cut better then using the saws sharp teeth? Why not have some backward facing teeth on the top to use to start the cut? How does the limited use of the regular teeth to start a cut really dull them that much? If the nib did somthing why did the saw makers stop using it, after all I suppose wood workers still needed to start a cut after 1920 or so when nibs were stopped being used.
... Like the one where the nib is to be used to grab lumber and pull it toward you. I have used them for this and does sort of work...but is why it is there? Don't know.
...I have seen lots of saws where the nib had been broken or filed off by an owner...I think probably because they believed it caused the saw to catch in the cut...I don't know. I have filed more then a few back in and it isn't much of a job.
Reminds of when I would ask my Grandfather why somthing was the way it was...he would say " To make children and stupid people ask questions" .....Todd
>It seems like I've seen the "holding thumb on wood at line, draw saw backwards" instruction so many times that I've lost track of my first sighting of it, but Stephen does have a point: was this always so, or is it a relatively recent practice? It would be interesting to find the first citation of this practice, and then try to figure out what, if any, relationship it has to the much-discussed nib*. AND: if the documentation of the practice is relatively recent, like late 19th century, is this an indication that woodworkers didn't used to do it, or just that it was so naturally understood that they didn't need to say it? We could all wander through these weeds for days.
*and, by the way, why do some folks capitalize nib?
I capitalize the word NIB because it's such a small word it might get lost among all the larger words and also because it's the subject of discussion.
I'm wondering why it's called a nib..opps...NIB. Lets start a new thread and come up with some appropriate words that would make it an acronym.
Was it always called a NIB? Did the creator of the little dingus call it a NIB?
When I first saw the word on eBay sellers used it to describe something that was NEW IN BOX. Later I saw it used in a description of an old rusty saw. I emailed the seller and asked why he/she was saying the saw was new.
Wikipedia lists several definitions.
Corner of a pillow...
Tip of a fountain pen...
A strong magnet made of neodymium, iron, and boron ...
Twizzlers Nibs, a bite-size cherry-flavored licorice candy
>my book where I say '...I feel that they are merely decorative.' That was 25 years ago and I have changed my mind. However I also state never start the cut by pulling the saw on more than one occasion.
Bill, that is my contention that all the stuff dates after Disston's History of the Saw. They all look very familiar. And as Mark Twain said 'let nothing evade your eyes, plagerize.'
Here is a definition of nib,v. Obs. exc. dial. 1558 [App. related to Nibble v.] trans. To peck, pick, prick -1645. intr. and trans. To nibble.(Oxford Universal Dictionary)
