You mentioned during our chat in the chat room Tuesday night that you have never seen anything written regarding starting a cut with a handsaw by pulling it back. I have a Disston Manual that does in fact state to lightly draw the saw back a couple times to start the cut while guiding the side of the blade with the other hand.
You said it would dull the teeth. My question is....how would drawing the saw back dull the teeth any more than drawing the saw back while using the saw normally taking full strokes. Aren't we dragging the teeth backwards half of the time?
>Sure the saw manufacturers are going to suggest that, it will wear their blades out faster by requiring more frequent sharpening and replacement.
As for me I do not drag my saw backwards, the saw remains in the kerf but I never drag it backwards, maybe the way I was trained. Same with a hand plane and a file and a rasp, &c.
>The only way I see that it would dull the saw would be if you were working with wood that was extremely abrasive due to inclusions. It might then wear the points down, but that would also work on the forward stroke. So, it still wouldn't make mush difference.
As to the matter of Stephen's saw stroke, My Dad also taught me to lift a bit on the backstroke. It makes the stroke smoother, causes less friction and allows the blade to cool somewhat, thereby reducing binding on the nest cut stroke. Is that about right Stephen?
>The teeth need relief behind them to cut well, just like they're miniature chisels. Probably less of a big deal for a cross-cut tooth, but even then some wear will result. Whether the wear is greater than in forward cutting is beyond me to say, but if nothing else it will subtract a few strokes from the "life" of a sharpening.
That said, I still sometimes start a cut this way. Life's just too short to worry about stuff like this.
>understand the issue. Even if it does dull the teeth (how, again? aren't they as tempered in back as in front?), we're talking one or two strokes over part of the blade (at least, I never use the full length of the blade), against probably 100 or more per cut, using the whole blade.
I've lost track of the number of times I've seen this recommended in writing, and learned it at my father's knee, and start nearly every cut this way, and it's been working for 45 years or more so far.
By the way, off topic, in my opinion it's a different matter with hacksaws - I was taught (not by my father) never to pull a hacksaw backwards to start a cut - which makes sense, because hacksaw teeth are shaped differently and the hardness ratio between hacksaw blade and steel is much closer than between woodsaw blade and (most) wood. It took me a while to learn to start on the forward stroke only, but it is better there.
>This topic has been bouncing around a bit, and one question I have is this. If the proper way to start a cut is with a nib, then why don't all saws have one? I have several saws and not a one has a nib.
>The same reason that all GOOD things come to an end they were too expensive to manufacture, so they quite using them. I have seen some later saws whom the manufacturer deemed not to put on the nib, had it added by the owner.
Why are modern glues used instead of hide glue, they are cheaper.
Why are modern finishes used instead of spar varnish, shellac and linseed oil, they are cheaper.
Why they quite putting the nib for starting the saw cut, I do not know. But with a few minutes and a file you can add this valuable tool to your collection.
>But it is not a very pretty decoration, now look at some 16th, 17th and even 18th century handsaws and those were elaborately decorated on the tip, but they also served the same purpose.
And the old argument for holding the saw guard on, what holds it on the other end?
Look these tools were meant to be used and while some were highly decorated most of the design was to perform a specific task. The nib appears on the most inexpensive varities as well as the most expensive versions.
>I have taught people to start the cut on the backstroke for about 30 years. However, it has been longer than that since I did any backwards sawing myself. If you are using the saw regularly, it is a waste of time to use the nib or the backcuts-just go ahead and cut. I've seen videos of guys dovetailing and spending more time making preparatory backcuts than it takes to make the whole cut. On the other hand, if backcuts help you make a more precise cut, then it is more than worth the time and little dulling.
I was thinking about the issue of rubbing on the backstroke lately when some one mentioned pain in the little finger while ripping. I think you definitely want to ease up on the backstroke, to rest your hand if not to go easy on the teeth. You can tell by listening to a guy that he is rubbing on the backstroke.
But I understand that the senior Disston himself stated that it was purely decorative. I've never traced the statement, so don't know if it is true, but the folks who wrote it right here on the Internet seemed trustworthy (unlike me).
>There's a reference to the nib in the 1907 Lumbermen's handbook, which is conveniently posted on the Disstonian Institute's web site. Here's the direct quote:
'The "Nib" near the end of a handsaw has no practical use whatever, it merely serves to break the straight line of the back of blade and is an ornamentation only.'
A hood ornament serves no purpose either... yet there they are. As for using them to start a cut, it seems awkward to me. I suspect there will always be conspiracy theorists though... It's my belief they were put there by Mason's in the late 1700's as a secret symbol of tradesmen, but as a symbol, the nib's intent was usurped and counterfeited by a collusion of industry barons (including Henry Disston) to belittle the organization and subsequently force the working class into accepting lower wages... Then Jefferson Davis discovered the plot, and hired John Wilk....
>... I was about to ask this very same question. I was not present in the chat room, nor even aware of the topic, so this issue may have been covered.
In my case the question relates to cutting dovetails. I was thinking of preparing a short article on tips to cut dovetails saw-to-saw for those who do not have the constant practice to make it intuitive. One of these is to establish a square cut across the face of the board. There are two ways that one might ensure this: either by knifing a line and using this as a guide (but this is time consuming), or back-cutting (pulling the teeth backwards to score a line) with the dovetail saw. My concern was that I do not want to make a suggestion that might reflect my (bad?) practice.
Logic says to me that more wear will occur with back-cutting. The question is "how much".
Yes it is easy to tell if some one is back cutting. The bucking and unnatural sounds coming from abusing a tool.
And you are right about not doing any of it if you do it a lot. I have to admit that I seldom use the nib, but it is there if I need it. I just hold my left thumb in place and start the cut by PUSHING.
I use hand saws of all types every single day, except the sabbath, on which I just talk about hand saws. I don't even lay out the angles of dovetails, just takes too long, I do mark the square across the ends as that is the important cut, you can deal with dovetails that are not a perfect or matching angle.
The only reference, so far about the nib is from a tool catalogue, it does not appear in any traditional woodworking books, even those written in the 20th century. I think Disston just didn't know what the nib was.
Back cutting is generally a bad practice, it dulls the tool and frankly it just doesn't work that well, with the bucking and dancing of the blade as it is being used in the wrong direction.
If you start cutting everytime by back cutting you will dull your saw much faster than by using the nib or a striking knife to start the cut.
I layout using a striking knife as it is much narrower than a pencil line and scores the wood preventing tear out. It also provides a precise starting point to begin the cut on the PUSH stroke.
>That's one of the things that I like about woodworking. There are so many opinions about "stuff" held by equally competent woodworkers. I for one am convinced that the nib, along with that little curly cut out in the handle that so many old saws have, is for a lanyard to hold on a blade protector, needed by itinerant craftsmen as they went from job to job.
This is very similar to the "chute board" vs "shoot board" controversy. I'll weigh in on this one also. "Shoot board" makes no sense to me. The chute is where the plane slides down and is a perfectly logical name. "Chuting" is what you do when you use a "Chute Board". I think this confusion arose when old craftsmen who didn't read a lot but passed down lessons orally, mistook the homonyms. It also may have arisen when someone really screwed up a miter and shouted "Oh, Shoot!". Or not.
Sometimes I screw us and that first cut isn't exactly where I want it. if the notch just sawn is in the waste I tilt the saw in the notch and carefully saw towards where I want it to go. then with the notch in the right place I straighten up the saw and continue the cut.
This is not the way I was trained to do it, I was trained to lay out lines and cut notches etc. But with a good saw that doesn't seem necessary to me.
>I'm willing to go with what has been written about the NIB. No need to imagine what it was/is for. One thought is, perhaps some wise ass of long ago had a good sense of humor and added it to the design of his saws because he somehow knew that in future years there would be forums that would allow people to communicate electronically and drive each other nuts regarding his simple little useless invention. It would be interesting to know just who it was who came up with it in the first place. I always thought Disston was responsible, but that's probably wrong.
Thinking of it in purely practical terms, I want to believe that the original intent was for some useful purpose. It added a lot of labor to the making of the saw and would seem very impractical to add manufacturing cost merely to decorate the end of a saw blade. Even my little pee brain could come up with something more decorative. However, during the time when the NIB first was added, whenever that might have been, to the blade of a saw, a lot of decoration was included when designing old tools. Some of the old cast iron levels come to mind. The NIB was obviously done by hand, not punched using a die. I have not seen two NIBS that look the same. Disston discontinued it on their saws around 1928 to help reduce cost.
I tend to lean in the direction that it was in fact decorative. If it was meant to retain a cord that held a tooth guard, all they would have needed was a notch. If it was intended to start the cut it would have been in the shape of a saw tooth or just a number of smaller teeth than the larger teeth like on a rip saw.
It really isn't important what it was originally intended for, if it can be used for a useful purpose such as Stephen uses it, then that makes it both useful and decorative. It doesn't really bother me that Stephen has found a use for it. What bothers me is, he is teaching the younger generation that it is in fact for the purpose of starting a cut. No one can know that to be factual. Will those young boys now think that the only saw that is useable has to have a NIB and reject using other saws without a NIB that could even be a better saw?
The best thing about it is, we are getting some enjoyment out of discussing it and maybe even learning something.
Marv
PS...Leif...didja see the saw vise I have up for auction this week?
