Proficiency vs. "gadgets"

Re: Proficiency vs. "gadgets"

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away

>Funny you should make this post Denis as I was thinking the same thing right after I seen that double handled saw. I dunno how to explain it, but there seems to be some type of "Perfection Quest" sweeping the land for the past 10-20 years it seems. Everything from the pefect angle setter to the Tormek sharpening system. Can't blame the inventors of the jigs I guess, if they can convince folks that they "need" it to achieve absolute perfecton then more power too 'em. I fell into the trap a little several years ago myself, then realized that it was foolish and quit it. Fortunately it didn't cost me too much $$$$.

The best response I ever read on this type of behavior/mentality was Todd's "Machne Men" post several years ago, now that deserves to be put into the top 10 posts of all time in my opinion. It shall set you free. I dunno if it can be dug out of the archives, or if Todd can re-write it, but it's well worth the read. I think I even may of printed it out, but am not 100% certain, I'll have to double check when I get home.

T.O.

Re: Proficiency vs. "gadgets"

Marv

>When I think about this subject I can't help but think that if it wasn't for the Glen Drakes of the world, we'd still be doing everything with rocks and sticks. On the other hand, perhaps we'd be better off in this day and age. However, I have to take my cap of to those who dare to offer up their ideas for ridicule and scoffing from those who have never invented anything different from the norm. I'm of course not referring to anyone on this forum. *grin*

Marv

Here here!

Dominic Greco in Richboro PA

>I was thinking the same thing myself. Sure it's a weird idea. And it looks as goofy as roller skates on a snake. But it's a different approach to a problem. And different ain't always bad. You put it best Marv when you asked where we'd be without people like this. Even though I'd probably not buy one of those saws, my hat is off to the guy.

You think Orville and Wilbur Wright weren't laughed at?

You just have to take a look at the early prototypes for turboprop aircraft to get a good appreciation for this. Some of those "X-planes" looked RIDICULOUS! But their breakthroughs paved the way for the Hercules and many other turbo prop aircraft. And let's not even get into Jet aircraft!

Can you tell I'm a flight enthusiast as well? Well, I have been know to own several PLANES! (yuk yuk!)

(Sad,...so sad)

See ya around,

Dominic

You hit the nail right on the head . . .

Angus Barclay, in New Zealand

>. . . and with something more innovative than a rock!

Yes, many gadgets and gizmos are over-hyped marketing ploys designed primarily to extract cash from your wallet. But some of them actually do what it says on the label - they work.

To my mind, dismissing "gadgets" as unnecessary for someone with sufficient proficiency is equally as foolish as being suckered by the marketing hype used to promote many gadgets.

It may just be, in some rare instances, that the gadget being dismissed off-hand is actually a step forwards for thousands of woodworkers.

regards

Angus Barclay

Re: weekender VS full time

paul womack

>One of my issues as a part-timer, who woodworks infrequently, is that my skills diminish over time.

Under these circumstances, a "helping hand" from a guide/jig/gadget can be the difference between a good project and a poor one.

Putting in enough hours to keep all the various skills I might need up to the level I'd like is simply not an option.

I recall advice from a highly skilled full time paving layer in a gardening forum. He was of the opinion that staineless steel shovels and spades are a waste of money, since shovels and spades are kept clean (nay shiny) by use in sand and gravel.

This was (of course) true for him, but not true for amateur gardeners.

Context, and different strokes for different folks is (as always) a factor.

BugBear

Re: Proficiency vs. "gadgets"

Chris Scholz at Galoot-Tools

>Yes, the age old question about jigs. Confucius' answer was: "The woodworker who wants to improve his skills first sharpens his tools" (ok, that is taken out of context).

Lu Ban (woodworker from 500BC who invented the plane, handsaw, inkline, umbrella, feng shui, etc.) stated that the reason for using rulers and quare is for teaching purposes, master wood woodworkers don't need these 'jigs'.

I figure for similar reasons engineers don't read manuals, certain things you just know...

Re: Proficiency vs. "gadgets"

Tom MacGregor

>I make things and I fix things. That's pretty much what I do, at work and at home. I've worked in construction, historic restoration, and as Maintenance Director of a nursing home, a factory full of old machines, and now of a factory full of new machines. I need to be able to do just about anything on a moments notice whether I've done it before or not. Sometimes this means using the skills I've developed and sometimes it means using a gadget. Sometimes it means inventing my own gadget. I prefer the simplest path that leads to my goal. This is often determined by balancing the time I have against how often I expect to do something. As my skills develop I tend to abandon gadgets, but some I'll always keep. You just need to try to step back and look at the big picture when that shiny new catalog hits your doorstep. Not always an easy thing for a tool junkie...

Agree *LINK*

Wiley Horne

>Paul has hit this one dead center, IMO. Some things I can maintain proficiency in, without constant practice. Sawing is one; free-hand sharpening is another; edge joining is another. Somehow I can stay locked on for those.

But hollow-grinding...I have to do a couple blades before I get back right again. And paring the baseline of dovetails is troublesome, because I just don't do enough of them. About the only jig I use without fail is a paring block (see link below).

So my viewpoint is like Paul's: I use the jigs which will save the project for me.

Wiley


Paring block

To jig or not to jig?

Hank Knight

>When I was in college, I used to chafe at the English Department's insistence on correct grammar, spelling etc. I could point to many famous authors who took a rather cavalier attitude toward these conventions. The response I got from the English Dept. was: "You can bet Hemmingway and Shakespeare knew the rules. When you know the rules and how to use them, then you can break them, but not before."

In a case where one seriously pursues knowledge and mastery of the craft of woodworking, that discipline is a good standard. When you know how to cut perfect dovetails, then you can allow yourself the use of a jig to speed up the process, but don't use the jig as a crutch. Learn the proper technique first.

Many, probably most, of us are a little more diletante in our pursuit of the craft. Broad mastery is a nice concept, but not really practical. Time constraints, distractions and lifestyle choices divert us from a religious dedication to the pursuit. Skills, once learned, get rusty because they are not used regularly. The goal becomes the completion of the project, the production of a piece of work that looks good. Not a bad goal in itself.

So in my view it comes down to what goals and standards you set for yourself. Are you truly dedicated to mastering the skills of the craft? If so, you need the discipline. If, on the other hand, you're more of a dabbler - and there are many levels of dabbling - then it's no sin to be seduced by the jig. Who's to say which is the more exaulted course? Not me. If it weren't for the dabblers among us (and I count myself as a serious dabbler), I don't think we would have witnessed the resurgence of interest in the woodworking we've seen in the last 20 to 30 years.

This Board is a great forum. Represented here are those who have dedicated themselves to mastery of the craft and have incorporated the discipline into their work ethic. On the other end of the spectrum are the "newbes" and in the middle are lots of us who pursue the craft with whatever lesser degree of dedication we choose. All contribute here with little in the way of judgmental commentary. This, I think, has raised my level of proficiency, and my guess is that most of us have enjoyed the same benefit.

"To jig or not to jig" is NOT the question. The question is what standard have you set for yourself. Once you've answered that queston, you can go forth and jig without guilt.

Re: Proficiency vs. "gadgets"

Dave Anderson NH

>Interesting post Denis. It's a philosophical question I've often pondered and I suspect that others have done so for millenia. We can diss almost any new invention and fall back on the old, "those who are competent don't need such crutches." The reality of the situation is that most of us as hobbiests don't have the time to develop and maintain skills at the level of the professional woodworkers of "yore", whenever yore was. I guess that my personal attitude is that I'll make those kinds of decisions on a case by case basis. I will however admit, I tend toward avoiding as many gadgets as possible. They are expensive when all of them are added up and far worse to me, they take up space and are a pain to store and often can't be found when needed. When it comes to jigs, I will often use them, but tend to make them out of scrap wood and anything else around the shop rather than go out and buy something that will be used only occasionally.

There must be a secret !!

ron in kokomo

>Golfers, fishermen, and woodworkers are all susceptible to having their wallets lightened because we really want to believe that there must be a secret that will substitute for practice., because few of us want to do the practice.

I remember an old post from Badger Pond or maybe over on oldtools, when some newbie wanted to know how to get better fast at dovetails. The sage who responded said to so a hundred joints just as soon as you can . He guaranteed that the 100th would be noticeably better than the first.

Ron.... who has several drawers full of gadgets :) :)

gizmos

dave brown

>I've tried a number of gizmos and few of them have left me feeling satisfied w/ the results.

For dovetails, just give me a nice back saw -- preferably w/ one handle. I'm not looking for water-tight joints, just structurally sound joints that keep my projects together.

Re: Proficiency vs. "gadgets"

Marv

>Just for fun I googled the word gadget. "Wikipedia" describes the word as follows....

Copied and pasted....

A gadget is a device or an appliance that has a useful specific practical purpose and function but is often thought of as a novelty. Gadgets are invariably considered to be unusually or cleverly designed than normal technology at the time of their invention. Gadgets are sometimes also referred to as gizmos. In some circles the distinction between a gadget and a gizmo is that a gizmo has moving parts, whereas a gadget need not have them. [citation needed] For example, a digital watch would be a gadget, while an analog watch would be a gizmo. Thus a gizmo is essentially a mechanical gadget.

I suppose the operative word here is "novelty". However, even though a device might be useful, it is THOUGHT of as a "novelty". Although it is thought of as a novelty, doesn't mean that it actually is.

So at what point do we think of something new and innovative as a novelty versus something else?

When the first plane was introduced, was it thought of as a novelty? And lets consider all the variations of not only the plane but so many other useful tools such as the handsaw and all the variations of that little invention.

I submit that the two handled dovetail saw is just one more variation. Lets not scoff at the inventor.

We so often brag and boast about learning to use a particular tool. Nothing wrong with being proud of what we do but lets not forget about the person who invented the tools that allow us to do what we do.

Marv

Re: Proficiency vs. "gadgets"

Kevin French, Antrim, NH

>I've got a few I use, and I've gotten rid of a few. OK their in the back of a drawer somewhere, HAPPY???

The only jigs I really use are, a dovetail marking jig and blade sharpening jigs.

the later jigs I'm trying to wean myself off, but I still use it when I want a really fine edge.

To move this thread one step further, I see way too many people who think if it's expensive it will really help me be a better WW'r. You see it all the time, someone asks 'What Backsaw for DTs' and everone jumps on LN. The question comes from a noivce, but we're sending him off for an LN instead of an older Disston with a good sharpening. LN planes instead of a Bailey, WWII TS blades over Systi Matics at half the price.

I have way too many interests in life, one of my downfalls, to spend a lot of money on anything I wouldn't use a lot. My 40+ planes cost less then 2 LN #5s. The way I see it those planes made better pieces then I most likely ever will, but with my jig and SS I might be able to make a better edge. And after this Fall's trip to Central Europe and seeing the WW'n from 3-400 years ago, I'm even more convinced that I have good enough tools and need to just work on technque. Note here: don't Cornfuse good enough with Enough tools. A Fell'a can alway use another tool especially if it's free.

Shiney Tools are nice but working more wood may be a better answer.

What jigs would/do you use?

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Personally, I don't have a beef about those who use a jig. I do prefer to develop my hand skills where it is possible, but that does not mean that I expect the same of others. The important thing is that we end up building something. How is that cheating?

I was wondering what jigs we consider to have played, or continue to play, an important part in handwork?

Top of my list of shopmade jigs would be a shooting board. I could also add a mitre jack, and a dovetail marking gauge. There are many others but my mind goes blank.

Of store bought jigs, the first to come to mind is the Eclipse honing guide. Not the best honing guide on the market (although some will disagree), it was the first one that I used and it helped me achieve the first sharp blades. This opened the way to working with planes and chisels.

Another jig that I think is terrific is the Veritas dovetail guide. I do not use one, but I have tried it out and see it helping a great many who want to move away from power.

So .. what others do you consider worthy?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: jigs that I use

dave brown

>Here's my list of often used jigs -- though I wince at terming them jigs as I see them more as handtools

bench hook

shooting board

mitre shooting board

dovetail marker

titemark gauges (a long and a mini)

double square

sliding bevel (crown & Stanley eureka)

czeckedge striking knife

wagon vise

jigs I tried and no longer use:

dovetail router templates

finger joint router templates

tail vise

traditional front vise

drill guide (so-called mini drill press)

various sawing "aids"

jointer plane fence

I'm sure there are others I missed in both the "use" and "discarded" categories but you get the idea. ;-)

regards,

Dave

I think it may come back to David Pye's idea *LINK*

Bill Houghton, sunny Sebastopol, CA

>David Pye, writer and thinker, offered the distinction between the workmanship of risk and the workmanship of certainty (I think those were his terms...middle-aged brain fade may be at work), arguing that the workmanship of certainty jigged the tool to create predictability in results, but limited creativity; while the workmanship of risk allowed creativity but was highly dependent on the worker's skill (I may also be drifting from his argument...ah, middle age!). He did not propose that either one was better - merely different; though you can tell from his writing that he likes the slight irregularity of skilled hand work, which he feels people find more comfortable than textureless modern perfection.

On the continuum, planes create workmanship of certainty relative to chisels or hatchets, but, relative to a shopbot, they're dependent on the worker's skill to a great degree, as witnessed by the difficulty most of us have or had when we were new at it with generating a straight, square edge on a board. I think the decision on any jig/gizmo/gadget/fixture/device/tool is a combination of whether it creates a desirable level of certainty; whether the certainty created is worth the time invested in setting up and using it; and how all that balances with any desired flexibility, including whether we find it more limiting or more comforting.


Review, here on Wood Central, of one of his books

One of my favorite books

Steve Elliott

>Thanks for reminding me of this excellent book. I need to take out my copy and read it again.

Re: I think it may come back to David Pye's idea

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>And here I was, ready to proclaim planes my favorite jigs. Or mention that most handles could be considered jigs, to say nothing of using flat stones and the like.

Pam

Re: Proficiency vs. "gadgets"

ThomD

>The problem I have with gadgets is that they seem to solve just a minute problem. Better hand eye corodination solves all your problems.

The good thing about gadgets is that they are often quite stimulating to the imagination, and years later one may rely on a similar principle in another context. Of course, that kind of benefit is often secured without the need to purchase the gadget in question.

I've had one or two moments with a drawknife

Bill Houghton, sunny again in Sebastopol, CA

>when I could shave an edge smooth and to a line with the knife alone - well, and the nervous sweat dripping on the wood to lubricate the cut. I prize the memory of those moments, and hope to acquire more (memories, not drawknives - I think I probably have too many as it is). Still, I won't be selling my planes and don't plan to build a breakfront china cabinet using a drawknife alone.

I own some publication of the Taunton Press with a picture of a woman using a hatchet to shape and smooth the wood of a Scandinavian sailing vessel; apparently, this is the dominant tool in that particular tradition. In the picture, she's planing an edge or smoothing a surface, if I recall correctly. On the other hand, I believe most hand-tool-oriented wooden boat builders have a kit of planes on which they depend.

I suspect this subject will remain a discussion forever among hand tool users - there's a vast continuum of ways to make a cut in wood, each with its tradeoffs, and each worker finds a personal balance among the tradeoffs.