Forget Plastic! *LINK*

OK, I'll try to be objective

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>Just to clear this out of the way, the BU/BD analogy does NOT apply here, as the two planes are used exactly the same way, grab either plane by the tote and knob, and plane away. The Wild West Saw requires a totally different technique in use compared to a "regular saw".

And I totally with the "don't diss it until you've tried it" approach. However, the new product has to make a compelling argument as to its value. If someone came out and suggested to cut fine DTs with a 5 point Disston, I would raise an eyebrow or two...

IMHO the WWS has many faults. First, how do you put the saw in position for the cut? Looks to me that you need one hand to put the blade in position, but in doing that the saw is unbalanced (center of gravity is offset from the hand holding the handle), this can't make it very handy to position. I read your blog entry yesterday and didn't re-read it this morning, but you alluded to the kerf starter being convenient. It seems to me that it is a necessity if one wants to put the blade in position while keeping both hands on the handles.

Then there's the body mechanics issue. With a regular saw one has a "three point stance", i.e. two feet on the ground and a hand on the workpiece. With the WWS, one loses that third point, and the upper body is brought into the action, I can see this causing back strain over time.

The two-hand hold restricts the effective length of stroke one can take, but when cutting DTs this is probably not much of a factor.

In the end, this saw seems directed to those who have a hard time making straight and controlled cuts. If that is the problem, a saw and guide system like the LV 05T03.01 seems like an easier and (most probably) less expensive solution, albeit less versatile (the cut angle is set).

The above is not intended to put down anyone, I still screw up cuts myself from time to time. But I see this saw as a means to avoid learning to cut right. This is not the first nor the last device designed to "assist" woodworkers, the marketplace is full of those. But one has to wonder at some point whether time and money would be better spent in learning the right techniques. That's a debate for another time...

As usual, I'll be glad to be proven wrong...

DC

I'm gonna wait...

Rich Glisson (Durham, NC)

>...for the 3-handle version to come out. I went through this same thing with shaving razors--I stocked up on the ones with 4 blades and now they've come out with ones with five blades! Gotta throw out all my 4-blade ones now.

Kevin came to our woodworkers' club

Glenn Madsen near San Francisco

>and brought this saw with him. He also brought a LN Dovetail saw, with the same tooth geometry. He's the first to admit that there are a wide array of ways to do stuff, but makes the case that certain tasks may take different tools.

There are a few things about Kevin that you may need to know to understand this, and the other products he offers. He's admittedly much more anal about precision than I am, and probably many others. He sells, as an example, a gauge that allows you the opportunity to adjust dovetail fittings in the .002 range, so you can leave room for glue. I will tell you that I haven't had that kind of need for precision yet, with my handcut dovetails. And machine cut dovies don't allow that precision even with a $500 jig.

There is no illusion that this saw is going to be the tool that puts him into the millionaire's club. At least, not right away. And I doubt he cares much about 'being rich'. It seems to be something he's doing to scratch a personal itch, and may offer to others that want to own one. They won't be inexpensive.

He builds beautiful tools, in limited numbers. Take it from that perspective, much like one might with a Japanese chisel master. Then it begins to make some sense.

Not at all . . .

Steve Mackay

>was just looking for the " why ". I might have missed it in the discription. I was looking forward to a layman's explanation for the two handles. Would still welcome ( with enthusiasm ) the benifits. As Merlin said : " theres always something smarter than yourself. ".

Is there a left-handed version available? :)

Norman (Metcalfe, Ont.)

>

( snicker, snicker )

Steve Mackay

>

Re: Why the naysayers?

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Hi Angus

It would be sad if new ideas were rejected out of hand without an attempt made to understand and, if possible, test them out. I applaud everyone who comes along with a new idea, or even an old idea that they have sought to investigate.

I hope my earlier post, with the alternative I offered, was not seen to be a rejection of Kevin's invention - it was simply an effort to understand it, and to hypothesize about the dymanics involved.

Regarding the replies here .... I have learned (the hard way!) that it is not everyone's bent to be so analytical.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Kevin came to our woodworkers' club

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>So, how did you like using the saw?

Seems to me that a dovetail saw is a silly first example, the cuts are so simple and fast, you'd hardly have time to get going before you'd be done. Why not aim for long rip cuts first?

I don't really have much of an opinion about the saw in question, don't much use western saws anymore; and Japanese saws easily allow me to go two handed when necessary. But I wanted to remind Bob that not all of us work for PWW, to whom toolmakers send prototypes and first run examples; therefore we have to make judgements based on something besides "trying it."

And I'm always in favor of people designing new tools, often with new approaches, which is why I haven't dissed the attempt out of hand.

Pam

Re: Why the naysayers?

Angus Barclay, in New Zealand

>Hello Derek,

I thought your response was well considered and thoughtful and I didn't see it as dismissive or negative.

You went to the root of what the 2-handled saw aims to achieve and, as you say, tried to analyze the dynamics of cutting wood accurately and easily.

Some other people have been less thoughtful or analytical. In the end, that's their own loss. The idea of the two-handed saw is out there in the wild now and will find its way based on its own merits. I hope for Kevin Glen Drake's sake that he has put some sort of patent or other IP protection around this idea, so that if it does succeed then he can reap the benefits.

regards

Angus Barclay

I own one, and here's why.

Chuck Nickerson

>I got to try a prototype at a Lie-Nielsen show in April or so. For me, accurate sawing has always been a problem, probably because I'm cross-dominate (right handed, left eye strong). On my second attempt with the WWS saw, I was able to saw to a 4" line, dead on. I've had the saw for five days and my dovetails are orders of magnitude better. For me, money well spent.

Most constructive post, Chuck! *LINK*

Wiley Horne

>Do you use the kerf starter thingy?

There is a link below which gives a simple test for determining one's dominant eye (for those who have been wondering).

Wiley


Determining your dominant eye

Re: Genius often looks like blasphemy

Norman (Ottawa, Ont.)

>I had a look at the design and was wondering if, rather than 2 handles, one handle is maintained with a swivelling and lockable component that extends the width of the handle. This would allow two hands to be used to guide the saw if preferred,,, or the sawyer? may opt to simply use the single, centred handle.

It is less of a radical redesign of the typical dovetail saw and appeases everyone.

This is based on the basis that very little to no downward pressure is necessary for dovetail cuts, the saw does the work.

Just a thought,

Norman

Very interesting concept...

Scott Burr in Ben Lomond CA

>Definitly not for every one. It has some nice ideas incorprated in to it.

I suppose if you have big hands you could use it one handed.

Re: I own one, and here's why.

Peter Evans in Sydney

>I have the same eye dominance problem, the issue got a bit of a run on the PWW blog recently. If you consider sawing is a problem for us so afflicted, think golf. Apparently mixed eye dominance is the most common reason golfers consult a pro to fix accuracy problems especially driving. My golf accuracy is woeful, my sawing a little better.

Chuck, perhaps you could post some pictures on your technique.

I was not going to make a comment...

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>but I am not sure that I can stop myself. At first I thought that it just looked silly and after thinking about it for a while I am not sure I have changed my mind.

I do think there have been some great comments about this tool. It has spurred another thread on gadgets, gismos, jigs, &c. I actually think that some people may find it useful and I hope that happens.

Being a professional (and I use that term loosely) Cabinetmaker and using only hand tools most of those things just get in the way. A bench hook, shooting board, sticking board, miter block, those are useful appliances.

When I dovetail, I use a marking gauge, striking knife, square and an unbacked rip saw to cut the stuff. I use either a bow saw with a cranked blade or chisels to waste away. I only lay out how many dovetails I have to cut, not their angle, I just cut them as a matter of course. I cut them fast and dirty, they never show, most dovetails are on drawers and are not exposed.

While it may work for some folks, and I hope it does, at first I thought it looked like a dowsing rod, sort of dowsing for dovetails, but the more I looked at the photographs it looks more like the hands are clasped in prayer, looking for divine intervention when attempting dovetails. Amen

As for the starting knife, no teeth end, I have never seen that before and thought that what the nib was for? I think the physical movement is not quite natural and I wonder how the elbows would do using this saw for extended periods of time. A bureau or chest of drawers can have over a hundred dovetails.

And I appologize for being a traditionalist, but sometimes it is hard to improve upon the past.

Stephen

Re: Kevin came to our woodworkers' club

Glenn Madsen near San Francisco

>There were 90 of us there, and so time with the saw was pretty brief.

It was well balanced, light, and the backsaw was stiff. The blade was custom ground, with the teeth essentially removed front and back. And it called for a different way of doing things than I learned from 'the old ones' who taught me many years ago. And I've learned that using a pull saw for me is tough to do. relearning old nerve pathways is tough. I admore those that can.

This looks like a very nice tool, but I'm not buying one this year.

I'll leave my options open.

BTW, I can't hit Tiger Woods driver, either.

Thanks, Glenn.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Re: I was not going to make a comment...

Glenn Madsen near San Francisco

>"I cut them fast and dirty, they never show, most dovetails are on drawers and are not exposed."

And there's the major difference. In Kevin's world, the dovetail is a showpiece, the joinery is the reason for the handwork, and it's all about getting to perfection.

He's not wrong. He's just different than you. Or I. And the tools reflect that difference.

Testing my sawing

Peter Evans in Sydney

>Sawing accurately

With the advent of the Wild West Joinery Saw and interesting blogs about sawing and eye dominance, I decided to replicate Chris Schwarz�s experiments set out in his blog.

So I drew some pencil lines on the end of a piece of pine and put my dovetail saw into action. A word about dominance � I am left eye dominant and use a saw right handed (in a long sawing session I will swap hands a bit). So the results:

* with two eyes open I saw around 2 degrees to the left across the top, and around the same vertically (I did not mark the board for the vertical cut),

* the results were pretty much the same with either the left or right eye closed, except that I found it really difficult to start a cut with my right eye closed,

* with both eyes closed (open to start cut) my top cut was around 5+ degrees out to the right, and my vertical cut the same as with my eyes open.

* sawing left handed I was clumsy and would need a lot of practice to saw steadily, results similar to sawing right handed, a little more out, but still veering to the left side.

Even when I tried to correct my error, I kept on sawing out a few degrees to the left.

Then I used a marking knife to mark both the top and vertical lines. The results were the same as with a pencil line just across the top, how does one make progress?

So I then used a chisel to make a start for the saw � again no improvement, what a b*gg*r.

Next I decided to use the reflection in the saw (saw around 150 years old so not a brilliant reflection, but a good light positioned just right makes a big difference). So a bit of moving the saw around, using squares to see what the reflection looked like when square in each direction� and I was ready. So at it. And I was close to square. At last I was overcoming my left leaning tendencies (to anticipate the question - no I am not really a socialist). With a bit of experimenting I could reliably move the cut a bit each way when starting the cut - at last some control.

Still a bit of a way to go, but progress � and eventually I might get to test the WWJS, the ultimate eye-hand coordination fix. In the meantime I have a few dozen saws to play with. I have a couple of Japanese saws that I no longer use, will test them when I get a chance.

What direction do others saw compared to the line � left or right, and how does that relate to their hand/eye dominance? Are there any mixed dominance members who saw perfectly, or close to it?

Re: Testing my sawing

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>Hi Peter

Good for you. Excellent work.

There is one more thing to try...

Hold your dovetail saw with your two hands triangulated in front (ala the Drake). This may be uncomfortable since your saw is not designed for this task, but it will give you a chance to evaluate whether binocular vision is helpful when cutting dovetails.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Re: Testing my sawing

Paul Kierstead

>I am mixed dominant (also left eye/right hand); to further complicate things, my left contact is optimized for far vision and my right one for near vision.

I don't saw perfectly, but I do saw a whole lot better then I used to; on the whole, pretty decently (though still lots of work). If I err, I will generally be clockwise and down to the left.

I got better by selling my chop saw and sizing all parts (length wise) by hand.

Re: Testing my sawing

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>I got fairly peculiar results. My target (CD center hole) stayed in view for both eyes, very slightly less movement for the left eye. What does it mean? How does this relate to my non-right handed orientation (right handed, but also capable in some things left handed)?

Pam

Re: Testing my sawing

KenI

>I'm not sure how to interpret your results.

Something you might have better luck with is something I haven't seen anywhere, but seems pretty straight forward to me. Which eye do you use when you look through the viewfinder of a camera or microscope? I found that the reason I have to rotate my photos one way and my wife's the other is that we hold the camera to opposite eyes, but hold the camera with the same hand.

Ken

Re: Testing my sawing

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Hmmm, I mostly use 2-1/4, 4x5, and digital with LCD, so both eyes. Thirty years ago I used 35mm, mostly left eye; but I suspect this was because my right eye is self-corrected lazy. Only when it gets tired do I rely on the left eye.

Thanks,

Pam

Re: Testing my sawing

Peter Evans in Sydney

>Pam, a better test I think is to go outside and hold up an index finger and focus with both eyes on something in the distance, say 30 yards away, eg telegraph pole. Then close each eye in turn. The eye where the telegraph pole is still in line with your finger is your dominant eye. The difference for me is significant; focusing on a tree 30 yards away, when I close my left eye the finger is lined up around 10' to the left of the tree. CD hole works but not as well.

From what you said you might have weak left dominance, check using your finger (appropriately).