Forget Plastic! *LINK*

Re: Forget Plastic!

MikeW

>And Kevin with the saw at last May's LN Hand Tool Event near Portland, Ore.

Take care, Mike

Got fresh coffee...back to work...

OMG... Now I've seen everything...

Denis Ch�nard, Orl�ans, Ont.

>

Re: Forget Plastic!

Paul Kierstead

>Wow. When I popped that open, I was checking the date to make sure it wasn't an old April Fool's joke.

That is just frickin' weird.

But, But.....

Jim Shaver - Oakville, Ontario

>But I'm left handed..

:-)

Well that is something I have not thought of before....not sure how it works with my method as I like to look down the side of my cut...I always learn something new here every day.

:-)

Take care,

Jim

Awkward

Warren in Lancaster, Pa

>Some of us use the thumb of the off hand as a guide to start start the cut. I for one think it would be awkward to start without it. It might also be awkward to use the two handled saw with only one hand.

If it works for someone, great

Bill Houghton, sunny Sebastopol, CA

>but I doubt I'll be saving my pennies. Heresy? No, if I'm missing something, great; but it looks like an invention seeking a problem. Every bit of wood would need to be clamped, when, in fact, a lot of cuts can be made with one hand holding on the bench hook and one hand on the saw. Etc.

The toothless start and finish to the blade is interesting, and a separate issue from the handles - that might be worth exploring, though it seems like better technique is more important.

If you can't cut with one hand will two help?

Stephen Shepherd in the State of Deseret

>

Completely daft if you ask me

Todd O. Cronkhite Maine Native, Presently Away

>I didn't even bother to read the article, looked so damn daft that I don't feel it's worth the effort.

T.O.

From the bowels of marketing..

Paul M.

>I can just now hear the marketing departments from their competitors:

If two handles are better than one... and our competitor has two handles..... LETS MAKE A SAW WITH THREE HANDLES!!!!

You can tell I have little love for marketing. ;-)

My hands fight with each other . . .

Steve Mackay

>with only one on the " trigger ". Looks like a lot of coordimation needed for this. But I CAN see it for diminished dexterity in one or both hands.

Re: Forget Plastic!

MikeW

>I didn't have time earlier--and I'm dashing this off before returning to the shop for round two--but I do want to add a note about using this saw of Kevin's.

I didn't have a chance myself to use it, but my oldest son Kris did. He found it both easy to start and track well. He says that once one gets past the novel looks that he could see it working well for someone who consistently twists the wrist when sawing with a traditional saw--and even straight-handled saws be they western or Japanese.

Take care, Mike

Re: If you can't cut with one hand will two help?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>Sometimes it will. I often saw with two hands for longer rip cuts, Japanese saws. There's a certain stability introduced. However, my hands are forward and back, I aim between my legs, so they're in line, not two separate mechanical actions.

Pam

Agree with Pam

Wiley Horne

>Same experience as Pam, with Japanese saws, particularly rip or resaw. We used to get the same instruction playing infield--'use two hands'.

Wiley

No, no, you're missing the design possibilities

Bill Houghton, sunny Sebastopol, CA

>The space between the handles is PERFECT for the aiming laser.

Concur

Bill Houghton, sunny Sebastopol, CA

>I've been among those climbing all over the design, but it may well be useful for those with limited dexterity/capacity.

The dymanics involved?

Derek Cohen (in Perth, Australia)

>It strikes me that there are three features here, two in the process of sawing and one in the saw itself.

The process of sawing straight is increased when one has strong laterality - same side for eye and hand. Things must line up, otherwise there is the danger of being pulled to one side or other. So sawing with two hands centralizes the blade, encourages binocular vision, and reduces the problems associated with crossed laterality.

I think that there is another way to do this without going to all this trouble. Most of us do it anyway. This is simply to saw to two lines. I am amazed when I see Rob Cosman sawing dovetails over the top of his board (that is, only seeing one line). Clearly he must have extra-ordinary ability with spatial orientation. I am not that good, so I saw to two lines.

I will take this a step further. In my opinion, the most important line to saw when sawing dovetails is the first rip cut square across the top of the board (as when cutting the tails). To make sure I get this spot-on, I draw the saw back along my pencil line, creating a fine groove. Once this is about 1mm deep I cut forwards and down toward the line facing me.

You can also check how square you are in the reflection of the board from the blade. Incidentally, this is an Independence saw (forerunner of LN) that Mike refiled for me. It is wonderful.

It strikes me that the GD saw is also designed to do this task in the toothless front and rear sections.

What do you think?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Why the naysayers?

Angus Barclay, in New Zealand

>I'm amazed at how easily some people on this thread have scoffed at this saw based solely on the photos. I know this is the neander side of Ellis Island, but what happened to being open to innovative ideas?

I would love to give this saw a try in my shop. If it didn't work after getting accustomed to it, then I would be right there alongside the other critics. But it seems counterproductive to dismiss this idea solely on a few photos.

I'm looking forward to reviews from people with real-world experience using this thing for a period of time. If I were a betting man, my money would be on the new-fangled saw.

regards

Angus Barclay

Re: Forget Plastic!

Marv

>The thing that makes the saw easier to start the cut is due to no teeth at both ends of the blade. I've done that for a number of people who I've retoothed dovetail saws for.

A similar thing can be done by any of you by merely filing the teeth like a knife blade about 1-1/4" from the toe end of the blade. The V shaped teeth will cut a small groove for the teeth on the rest of the blade to follow.

If you have an old saw laying around that's not your favorite saw, you might try experimenting with it.

Using two hands on such a small saw seems would be quite awkward. I think I'll make one with bicycle handle bars. Whataya think?

Remember years ago when the electric knife started showing up at Thanksgiving? How bout sharping one with small rip teeth? Mike W? New product?

Marv

Genius often looks like blasphemy

Bob Lang

>I too am surprised at the negative response based on appearance alone. Reminds me of people who scoffed at automobiles and airplanes. My impression of the saw is in the blog entry, and although my mind isn't made up about adopting it, it is certainly worth trying out before rushing to judgment.

The technique for using this is actually quite easy, once you get over the differences between this and a conventional saw. The two handed grip makes for a very easy, relaxed pushing motion that overcomes any tendencies to drift to one side or the other.

I don't think this saw is for everybody, but I do think there will be a significant number of people that will find it meets their needs in changing what can be a frustrating task into an enjoyable, reliable and predictable one. Kevin Drake isn't the kind of guy to market a product on the "gizmo" factor alone. He has thought through the process of sawing and saw design and the result is a valuable innovation. How long has it been since someone has been able to do that?

You can argue the differences between this saw and others, just as you can argue the differences between bevel-up and bevel-down planes. The first reaction to something new may be strong because of the newness. My first thought on seeing bevel up planes was "that is just backwards and wrong." Once I put my hands on one, I could make an informed judgment.

Bob Lang

Thanks Bob!

Brad in Ottawa

>Your first hand experience with the saw provides more insight than what I could obtain from a picture.

I knew that this would be contentious given the recent backlash to plastic saw handles. I thought at least this saw would be given a lukewarm reception at least.

I think that Kevin put a lot of thought into an innovative design to address what newbies have when it comes to accurate sawing for joinery. It does deserve a chance to be assessed through actual usage and not pictures on the web.

Brad

Kerf Starter *LINK*

Brad in Ottawa

>Derek,

I thought that the toothless section would be good for setting a groove for the kerf. However, there is a link in the article to a kerf starter that Glen Drake sells.

(The kerf starter looks like a knife but acts like a scraper. Basically you use the starter to mark the cuts.)

Maybe you should try to review this saw?

Brad


Kerf Starter

OK, how do you suppose we'd try it without buying?

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Great tip, Marv, thanks.

Pam Niedermayer - Austin, TX

>

Re: Genius often looks like blasphemy

Paul Kierstead

>I think if dovetails are the *only* think you saw, and you haven't saw much previously, then maybe it might be ok. However, it doesn't let you hold the wood to reduce vibration which is a serious flaw, IMO, especially for those of us who like to saw with the wood a couple inches out of the vise.

I find just about anything where my arms have to be close together and have a linear motion to be pretty clumsy. My mind rebels at the thought of it. The use one hand to saw and use the other to hold the wood and assist the angle of the saw works really well *if* you have some experience.

As for starting a saw, the chisel notch trick as related by Chris works really really well, as does learning to ease up on the saw.

I don't doubt a lot of consideration has gone into the saw, but it doesn't mean that it is for all of us. It isn't closed minded to pass judgment; it is only closed minded to pass judgment if the judgment is not a considered one.

Give the opportunity, I'd try one, but I sure wouldn't buy one without having give it a pretty good spin.